To Opera developers: please listen to the users.

paulmarkj

paulmarkj

What you think is great now, you will abandon in the future because you have thought of something else. That is why opera menus, etc, keep changing.

Every time you change, people have to re-learn. We don't have time to re-learn. We do full time jobs, but also have to re-learn Windows, we have to relearn word, excel, etc. It all takes time and when we learn it, somebody changes it again.

Please remember: Not everybody is tech savvy. I am, but I have to teach people how to use this technology. They come to me as say "I can't find X", then I have to find X and it takes me tome then I teach them.

Please remember three things:

What you think is great now, you will abandon in the future because you have thought of something else. So, is it really great? That is why opera menus, etc, keep changing, so don't make unnecessary changes.
When Microsoft keep changing, they are ridiculed. When opera keeps changing, some people think it is somehow cool. No, it is not cool when you want to do something simple but have to hunt through manuals to do it.
If you do make a change, make it EASY for people to find the option they used to have. (See point 1: you put made the original design because it was good; if it was good, people use it, then you take it away).

Do I sound frustrated? Yes, I am. I have had a hell of a week teaching people to use product they used to know how to use. Net result: they can now do the same things they used to do. What a waste of time and effort.

Pleased listen to the users.

linuxmint7

linuxmint7

So to sum up all your points, Opera is keeping you in a job.

Technology is changing all the time, software, hardware, the things we do and the things we use to do them. It's a simple fact of life in the world we live today. Stand still and you may fail, move with the times and you may prosper.

lem729

lem729

@paulmarkj, this change has been already more than a year. You can adjust. Sometimes change can be for the good. Opera, please don't be frozen into the status quo by a few strident voices, but be willing to go out of the box for something you believe in. All artists do that. And creators. Maybe Microsoft is sometimes ridiculed, but one has to be willing to be ridiculed when one has an idea that is different. I don't at all laugh at Microsoft when they try to create something original and useful. Yes, Opera should listen to users, but not necessarily follow the easy way, or what some vocal users say. The path to excellence is not a majority vote. And if you think it is, you are doomed to mediocrity. I expect more from Opera. Over the years, I have seen excellence from Opera.

paulmarkj

paulmarkj

I will give an example of what should be easy: save a session.

I look up "opera save session", the advice from opera.help.com says:

"Go to Opera > Preferences > General "

But I don't have preferences under opera! The advice is bogus (yeah, I'm sure you all know where to find it, but think about the ordinary user). I google for "opera preferences", answer:

"Opera's preference dialog holds a great number of useful settings; the most essential ones are found under "General", "Forms", "Search", and "Web pages"."

But I can't find "general", where is it?

I search for "Opera Preferences" but get nothing. So now I search again and find this:

"Access the preferences by going to Settings > Preferences"

I go to setting but there are no "preferences"

I search again for "opera preferences", this time I find this: "pressing Ctrl+F12", which yields nothing.

I go to opera help and type ' save session '. It says "No results matches...did you mean save session" and rather than go into an infinite loop, I abandon.

Please think of the user.

lem729

lem729

If you want to save a session, right click on one of the tabs of the session, and choose, save tabs as speed dial folder. Or download and install a Chrome app, like Session Buddy. https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/session-buddy/edacconmaakjimmfgnblocblbcdcpbko?hl=en

To download a Chrome Extension, you do need the Opera Extension, Download Chrome extension https://addons.opera.com/en/extensions/details/download-chrome-extension-9/?display=en Or Extension Source Viewer https://addons.opera.com/en/extensions/details/extension-source-viewer?display=en

As for preferences, just go to Alt P (settings), and you can choose your preferences there. Also, one can access and choose experimental settings by typing Opera:\flags in the address bar.

paulmarkj

paulmarkj

" Opera is keeping you in a job."

No, it isn't. I am a teacher, I have better things to do than this, Please think of the general users.

" You can adjust."

Yes, I can, but you didn't read what I wrote: what you change you will only change again. What you think is great will be abandoned and something new will come along.

" don't be frozen into the status quo by a few strident voices"

You are not listening: I don't have the time. I have a full time job. To you and me technology is interesting and exciting and I love change - at home, in my own time that is what I do. I am surrounded by technology at home. But at work I am paid to do a job. Opera is a tool to do that job, not an end in itself.

"The path to excellence is not a majority vote." So, you aren't going to listen to the users? Another nail in the coffin.

paulmarkj

paulmarkj

"If you want to save a session, right click on one of the tabs of the session, and choose, save tabs as speed dial folder. Or download and install a Chrome app, like Session Buddy. https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/session-buddy/edacconmaakjimmfgnblocblbcdcpbko?hl=en "

A great help for me would be to tell me how to find these things. What did I do wrong in my search? What could I have entered into google to find tat myself?

lem729

lem729

"If you want to save a session, right click on one of the tabs of the session, and choose, save tabs as speed dial folder. Or download and install a Chrome app, like Session Buddy. https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/session-buddy/edacconmaakjimmfgnblocblbcdcpbko?hl=en "
A great help for me would be to tell me how to find these things. What did I do wrong in my search? What could I have entered into google to find tat myself?

Well, you posted in the forum, and you're being instantly helped. :)) At least I hope you are, because I'm trying, even as my dinner is on the stove. Now, as for Opera, the only thing they should choose is excellence in the browser, and not to be afraid of being creative when they believe it's good. All great things happen that way. By the way, though, paulmarkj, I do think Opera could officially provide better guidance on things in the browser. It's often there (or via an extension), but it's not always explained clearly, if at all, in a faq. I'm afraid it's not one of Opera's strengths.

What's the answer? We have to help each other in the forum. Now when I said the path to excellence is not always a majority vote, I didn't mean don't listen to users. That would be idiocy. But sometimes, one goes against the initial consensus. I mean, at one time everyone thought the earth was flat. Someone had to have the guts to put themselves out on a limb, and say no. That's science, but art and creativity are quite similar. I don't want Opera with their hands and feet tied, afraid to make change if they believe it's for the good. I say, go for it . . . And the rest will follow. Like in that movie "Field of Dreams": build it, and they will come.

lem729

lem729

@paulmarkj,

A few more ideas, I wanted to pass along to you. If you want, you can set the browser to "Open where I left off," instead of with the speed dial. It's your choice there. Just go Alt P (settings), and for the "On Startup item," put a dot in "Continue Where I left off" if you want the browser to start with your last session.

On the other hand, if you save a session as a speed dial item, you can when you open the browser, just right click on that speed dial item, and choose, "open all." Then you will have your session open in tabs.

Now you said: "A great help for me would be to tell me how to find these things. What did I do wrong in my search?" I know how frustrating that can been. Now I just did a google search for "Saving a session in Opera blink," and the first item I found was http://www.reddit.com/r/operabrowser/comments/1yovyl/how_to_save_and_open_session_in_opera_19/
Now that had the answer about right clicking on a tab, and saving your open tabs to the Speed Dial.

Also, I did a google search for "Sessions Chrome Extension," and the first item I found was Chrome Web Store - Sessions Buddy.

https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/session-buddy/edacconmaakjimmfgnblocblbcdcpbko?hl=en

You can always research Opera extensions by just clicking on the menu, and then clicking on Get Extensions. Or go to this address. https://addons.opera.com/en/extensions/?ref=menu

There's a search box there that you can use.

So what you were looking for on sessions could have been found relatively easily. And then you can also always do an Opera Forum search. The search vehicle in the forum is sadly, pretty poor, but sometimes it finds things. You should at least sometimes try.

Where you can't find an answer, then post in the forum. There are a lot of users of Opera here, who have quite a bit of experience. Someone may be able to help you.

rubinontheroad

rubinontheroad

I listened to paulmarkj and nod my head. I just posted "rubinontheroad" saying the same basic things that were never answered here. There is no "preferences after settings" even though all help and forum answers say there is. Settings in the dropdown of "Opera" leads to the same choices, first made upon starting with Opera, why is that so hard to understand. Help and forum help guide you to something that doesn't exist. I feel for paulmarkj and I've only been trying to change font size and set a menu bar. What no responses from someone who understands what we are seeing?

lem729

lem729

Your preferences are in settings, @rubinontheroad. You don't need a separate preferences setting. And because there are less settings in Opera 22 than there were in Opera Presto, it would make no sense to have a separate preferences file. It would be foolish consistency with what was. On the menu issue, just press the alt key (or alt f), and you can open the menu. It's one key (or two). If you use a qwerty keyboard, your hands are practically sitting on the alt key. On font size, press 0 or 9 (with the advanced settings in play). It's simple to set the font size.

On the zoom feature, I found a Chrome extension you might like (if pressing the 0 or the 9 is too much work), and you prefer something other than using the keyboard shortcuts. See https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/zoom/lajondecmobodlejlcjllhojikagldgd?hl=en It gives you a scrolling bar, for zooming, and more. To download a Chrome Extension, you do need the Opera Extension, Download Chrome extension https://addons.opera.com/en/extensions/details/download-chrome-extension-9/?display=en Or Extension Source Viewer https://addons.opera.com/en/extensions/details/extension-source-viewer?display=en You can install this, and if you don't like it, uninstall.

The resources for how to do the things you want, rubinontheroad, or to have totally simple workarounds, are out there.

newoperanut

newoperanut

I want to address your comment about science, art and technology's need to grow. Using a slightly older browser is not the equivalent of thinking the earth is flat. I appreciate the need for technology to keep moving, but the purpose of computing is (mostly) productivity. When programs change drastically, your productivity is cut into while you learn an what is an essentially new program. I chose not to learn Word's new ribbon and switched to the open-source Open Office, which rarely changes and is not subject to malware problems. I've been using the same version for 5 years and don't feel I'm missing anything. My version of PaintShopPro dates back to 2001, but it does what I need efficiently. I use maybe 10% of the functions anyway, and new bloated versions would be wasted on me.

I belong to a large PC users' group in a major city. Most people, even in this group, use only a small percentage of the functions of large program. It's not necessary for developers to keep puffing up programs with thousands more lines of code, but they feel everything must be "new and improved," like soup, cookies and detergent. And of course pricier, which is the purpose of the whole thing. Hard drives and RAM have to get larger to accommodate all this, too, so what you have is constantly becoming obsolete. Win XP is an excellent OS, beloved by literally millions around the world, but MS has replaced it 3 times, 2 of which were disastrous. That's OK, they'll just make a Win 9 soon.

Now let's take the example of free browsers. Bloating doesn't raise the price or the salaries of developers. I think they change the code because they can, not necessarily for the users' benefit. My primary browser, Firefox, just went through a drastic new GUI, along with some security fixes. I spend a great deal of time at Mozillazine.org, and scores of users found they couldn't work efficiently with the new GUI, couldn't find familiar things. But we had to update to get the new security features. Add-on developers soon wrote 2 extensions that restores the old features. Then we spent some time learning the new extensions. And now our profiles are a little bigger. And so it goes...

Deleted User

Deleted User

Things change in life so you'd better get used to it. What will you do should Open Office be removed? My wife is an office manager and for years used Word for program guides she developed. Then the local newspaper decided that they did not want to use MS Word so she was forced to use an entirely new program which she HAD to learn.

Opera Presto is dead and that is that. A person would be a fool to continue to use Windows XP in today's hacker world but fools are all around us and continue to take chances. Presto was increasingly incompatible with many websites AND increasingly difficult of the programmers to maintain. Talking about the whys and wherefores of software changes is pointless: it is what it is so deal with it.

Bottom line: either get used to the new Opera browser or find another than floats your boat but don't expect Opera to cater to your wishes. You paid nothing for Presto and you have no contract dispute or axe to grind with the company that provided so freely the software you used all those years.

I LOVE the new browser and I know many others do as well. The number of whiners are beginning to shrink as more get on board with the new browser. Oh, there will always be whiners and complainers... that's a given. Opera needs to focus on developing the new browser and it is doing just that.

blackbird71

blackbird71

What has to be realized is that there are two "world-views" regarding web browsers. One view sees a good browser as an inherently highly-integrated tool to efficiently accomplish a user's work, which normally implies in that user view, a high degree of continuity in native browser controls and behavior - even as the tool design evolves. The other view sees a good browser as simply a convenient portal for rapid access to the Internet associated with mostly casual or unstructured purposes, wherein continuity and detail-level functional browser control are essentially non-entities. The latter view, which today increasingly includes browser designers, perceives that any user-sought, detail-level control/functionality can be readily accomplished by custom/third-party add-ons or extensions; and that view generally regards the limitations and problems of such adjuncts thereby imported into a user's browsing experience/performance to be either trivial or simply an unavoidable consequence of being a "minority" class of user today.

Those of us users who have lived through much, if not all, of the evolution of computers and the Internet have seen this same kind of transition in all areas of the digital realm, both hardware and software. A very large part of it stems, of course, from the "commercialization" of computers and the Internet as they have been gradually adopted by very large numbers of non-technical users, as well as stemming from growing numbers of users who have never learned nor cared about the "innards" of detailed, subtle software features in order to improve the software's native usefulness (to themselves) as a tool. In that regard, it's just the way things currently are... designers are simply following the trend toward where the largest user market currently lives. Of course, that makes things more than a little problematic for "tool-focused" browser users, since the market is witnessing a growing evaporation of tool-based browser native functionality in favor of simplistic consumer-grade browsers with most tool-like features left to be bolted-on as needed by those users who require them.

Only time will tell if there again arise future browsers that are more tool-like in their behavior. It almost certainly won't come from "free" browsers that are chasing the mass-market. In the meantime, tool-oriented browser users have to find their own way to a solution that works for them, depending on whatever the tradeoffs are between various existing browser concepts and how those impact them as users. For some, that will mean staying with Old Opera plus an adjunct browser for "difficult" sites; for others, it will mean trying New Opera and a host of extensions; for some others, it will require migration to an entirely new (to them) browser; and for still others, it will mean learning to use multiple browsers almost interchangeably, depending on the "tool-ish" needs of the moment. What is certain is that things have changed in major ways, and will probably change a lot more in the not-so-distant future as trends exert their pressure.

newoperanut

newoperanut

Leushino--

I don't need my computers for work, so I can choose any programs that work for me. There will always be open-source programs for those Opera is my secondary browser. My first choice has been Firefox, since v.1, to which I've added many years of tweaks to the code and 30 add-ons. It's not just a tool but something I've honed to my own requirements. Opera will never compare to that browser for flexibility.

I belong to maybe an elite group, a computer club where I've attended workshops for 18 years. The majority of people I know outside the club use their programs right out-of-the-box, but the 400,000 registered users at mozillazine.org certainly don't.

newoperanut

newoperanut

(Have you noticed you can't edit your posts here. Some software doesn't do enough.)

typo above--, 2nd sentence
There will always be open-source programs for those who don't want the bloat of commercial programs. Some software companies don't understand "if it ain't broke, don't fix it."

2nd Paragraph--there are far more power users than when I started computing, but there are also far more choices of programs performing the same functions. Users tend to level off at whatever works for them.

leocg

leocg Moderator Volunteer

Have you noticed you can't edit your posts here

Yes, you can. Up to 30 minutes after you have posted.

lem729

lem729

@newoperanut

To edit your post, you refresh the page after you posted something, click on the cog underneath your avatar, and click on the edit button. You have 30 minutes after your post to edit. I know how frustrating it is not to be able to edit, so am glad the Opera forum makes it possible and easy.

Now you say, Firefox is "not just a tool but something I've honed to my own requirements. Opera will never compare to that browser for flexibility." I also use Firefox, as a backup, and I have for years. However, I vastly prefer Opera 22. I know Firefox has more extensions, but Opera does have all of its own extensions, as well as Chrome extensions, so it does have quite a lot of flexibility. Now in my experience, Opera 22 is faster than Firefox. And some browser tests I've seen support that. http://www.slideshare.net/MID_AS/browser-performance-tests

And then Opera has some other features -- like the wonderful Speed Dial with folders, Discover, Stash, turbo mode . . . I can see your long adherence to Firefox, but choosing the browser is not an open and shut affair. There is no black and white answer. I think the new Opera can compete for users with anyone.

And while I'm on this topic of black and white, @blackbird71, your last post was a good one (as yours almost always are), though I wanted to blur a contrast that you made. You seemed to suggest two types of users -- one, the more business oriented (the one looking at the browser as a tool to accomplish work), and the other, perhaps, the more pleasure oriented, what you call, users looking for a "convenient portal for rapid access to the Internet associated with mostly casual or unstructured purposes." Many (maybe most) users have a mix of both in them. They use the browser for business purposes (in the workplace, on-line banking, for purchases, etc), but also for more casual uses -- in pursuit of hobbies, blogs, music, video, information needs. I do think the new Opera can be a good browser of choice for the business user (added functionality though with extensions), the casual user, and that other group (possibly the largest category), the user, who uses the browser for both business and casual needs.

A Former User

@paulmarkj

I look up "opera save session", the advice from opera.help.com says:
Could you elaborate on how you looked that up? The contents on help.opera.com is basically Opera's help files, and they are different for different versions. The right way to reach the site is from the "Help" menu. If you searched the web and opened a page on help.opera.com without checking which version it applies to you will of course risk being misled.