Opera 15 is a DISASTER

[den1]

den1 last edited by

would opera consider splitting development of opera into webkit and presto? i love all the features that opera 12 had. opera 15 to 18 are completely useless to me. i can't even sign in to 18 to use opera link.

[stng]

stng last edited by

den1
No. Presto's team doesn't exist anymore.

[Deleted User]

Deleted User last edited by

Originally posted by gr00:

If in due time all the features are not equivalent (Sidepanel, Private browsing mixed with non private browsing, dual fields for address and search, password button, etc) I will switch to Chrome. Why? Not to support a company that is clearly killing it's own product. Alongside it's services.

Well, a strange move, not to say more: going from Opera to a piece of spying software from google...

I've found one clone of FireFox that will not get the chromisation (the australis UI), it is the PaleMoon.
Not a close match for v12 Opera, but at least customisable, lite, fast and secure browser.

[connwarwicker]

connwarwicker last edited by

I downloaded the Opera Next to get all the new features when they come out, but as far as I can see, still not even simple things like bookmarks available? Very disappointing. I was hoping 6 months later they might have sorted out all this stuff by now and put all the nice features back in, but it still seems like a very poor impression of Chrome, which I dislike to start with.

[leocg]

leocg Moderator Volunteer last edited by

Originally posted by ConnWarwicker:

I downloaded the Opera Next to get all the new features when they come out, but as far as I can see, still not even simple things like bookmarks available? V

There is a bookmark bar but you need to enable it on opera:flags and then on settings.

[Deleted User]

Deleted User last edited by

That is sad to read. 4 version numbers later and the new opera still doesn't have hat I want from a browser. It's not even at a stage where I would try it out. Staying with the good old version 12 for a while longer.

[mazzic]

mazzic last edited by

Originally posted by arashpour:

It's just a common mistake. It is not "Opera" 15. It's a Chrome. I think there has been a typo in the first page of Opera's website.

@leushino, I will find it hard to believe if you deny that you are getting paid by Opera to post in these forums constantly ( I sincerely hope that you get paid!). Nobody has that much time or will to come here and go on every topic making long arguments defending what is basically rubbish. Anyway, I hope at least the money is worth it to be a hired troll\ LOL

He's probably just a loser troll that has nothing better to do with his life than hang around here and make fun of the tens and tens of people who complain about the (brilliant in his ... opinion) new opera. In his self-centered little world he knows better than everyone else.
In the meantime I have yet to see anyone praise the new versions. But that's a minor detail to a troll.

[blackbird71]

blackbird71 last edited by

Originally posted by mazzic:

Originally posted by arashpour:

It's just a common mistake. It is not "Opera" 15. It's a Chrome. I think there has been a typo in the first page of Opera's website.

@leushino, I will find it hard to believe if you deny that you are getting paid by Opera to post in these forums constantly ( I sincerely hope that you get paid!). Nobody has that much time or will to come here and go on every topic making long arguments defending what is basically rubbish. Anyway, I hope at least the money is worth it to be a hired troll\ LOL

He's probably just a loser troll that has nothing better to do with his life than hang around here and make fun of the tens and tens of people who complain about the (brilliant in his ... opinion) new opera. In his self-centered little world he knows better than everyone else.
In the meantime I have yet to see anyone praise the new versions. But that's a minor detail to a troll.

And just what have all the many complaints accomplished, yours included (other than to clutter the index pages and threads of these "helps" forums)? Please again note: it's a "helps" forum, not a "complaints" forum. I don't pretend to know where complaints are "supposed" to be registered, perhaps out in some Internet opinion forum, perhaps over in the release blogs - but what I do know is that these forums aren't the place. I don't care for some aspects of New Opera and I don't use it as my primary browser; @leushino doesn't care for some aspects of New Opera and has other browsers he at least often uses; @pesala doesn't care for some aspects of New Opera and sticks with an older Opera version; likewise for still other contributors. None of us are Opera employees, and none of use see fully eye-to-eye on a variety of things. But what we do share with many other volunteers is the desire to help users in these forums having technical questions or usage problems, at least with topics we can. And it is getting harder and harder to do that in the midst of all this complaining negativism.

These complaint threads and postings have become the bane of these Opera forums in recent months. At the outset, there was at least the possibility of influencing some of Opera's developers who chanced to read the early ones. However, the vitriol and personal attacks have gotten so intense and repetitive that they have rendered nil any possible useful value they might have ever had. The level of Opera criticism has become so snarky, bitter, accusatory, and personal that the entire forum atmosphere is becoming toxic.

There are some simple realities here:
1 - We all post here on Opera's nickel.
2 - Opera hosts this forum for user-volunteers to help other Opera users with technical or usage problems.
3 - Opera browsers are free.
4 - Opera is in charge of its browsers and their designs.
5 - There are other free browsers out there (at least one already being on most Opera users' computers).
6 - No nation or company has the power yet to force browser users to use only one brand of browser - that includes you.

In the light of all this, how did you earn the right to come to these forums and call anyone self-centered, loser, or a troll and be taken seriously? It's time for you to grow up, get a life, be appreciative for the free browser you've enjoyed and the ones you will enjoy tomorrow, and show some respect for others.

[A Former User]

A Former User last edited by

Originally posted by blackbird71:

These complaint threads and postings have become the bane of these Opera forums in recent months. At the outset, there was at least the possibility of influencing some of Opera's developers who chanced to read the early ones. However, the vitriol and personal attacks have gotten so intense and repetitive that they have rendered nil any possible useful value they might have ever had. The level of Opera criticism has become so snarky, bitter, accusatory, and personal that the entire forum atmosphere is becoming toxic.

I really appreciate your posts, which attempt to keep this forum on track, but I feel that you're fighting a losing battle. At one time, any rant thread like this with CAPS LOCK in the title would have been locked soon after it was posted.

The only solution is to moderate forums strictly. Forums that are run by software companies need to be maintained to be useful. It's an onerous task, with thousands of spammers on the blogs to control too, besides what we see here and in many similar threads. It tends to be something done by Opera staff in their spare time — if they get any, and is not a full-time post. Hopefully, when the forums are moved they will be much more tightly regulated because the mods will no longer have to deal with blog spam.

Volunteer mods could do much of the work, but I feel that they are afraid to incur the wrath of the negative posters for censorship. They can safely ignore such complaints — closing forum threads or deleting posts that violate the forum rules, which users signed up to on joining these forums, is not censorship. People are free to go elsewhere and post on their own blogs or web sites, but this forum should be for the stated purpose — to get support for, and to discuss the Opera browser, not for complaining about unfixed bugs or the lack of any feature. There's a wish-list for feature requests, and a bug report wizard.

[stevenjcee]

stevenjcee last edited by

Originally posted by blackbird71:

These complaint threads and postings have become the bane of these Opera forums in recent months. At the outset, there was at least the possibility of influencing some of Opera's developers who chanced to read the early ones. However, the vitriol and personal attacks have gotten so intense and repetitive that they have rendered nil any possible useful value they might have ever had.
The level of Opera criticism has become so snarky, bitter, accusatory, and personal that the entire forum atmosphere is becoming toxic. There are some simple realities here: 1 - We all post here on Opera's nickel. 2 - Opera hosts this forum for user-volunteers to help other Opera users with technical or usage problems. 3 - Opera browsers are free. 4 - Opera is in charge of its browsers and their designs. 5 - There are other free browsers out there (at least one already being on most Opera users' computers). 6 - No nation or company has the power yet to force browser users to use only one brand of browser -

that includes you.In the light of all this, how did you earn the right to come to these forums and call anyone self-centered, loser, or a troll and be taken seriously? It's time for you to grow up, get a life, be appreciative for the free browser you've enjoyed and the ones you will enjoy tomorrow, and show some respect for others.

1. Yes, Opera's nickel created the forum, so one might assume an Opera employee, even one, just might stop by once in a while, to get a glimpse at what their users are feeling, but it appears they'd rather operate solely by polling & perhaps even focus groups. And we all know how very accurate polls always are. And you say "some of Opera's developers" may have read some of the earlier threads, but now due to the vitriol, they wouldn't bother. But, if they don't come back, how do they know they're of no use today?

2. It's interesting that the handful of "expert helpers" we see constantly posting are so put-upon by the "snarky, vitriolic, bitter, personal, & accusatory posts, that are completely unprovoked, senseless, and they are merely innocent victims. Yeah, I suppose it couldn't possibly be a response to the snarkiness, vitriol, and nasty put-downs the "expert helpers" are so often prone to dish out? There's always going to be some posters who come across as aggravated & frustrated, and in the case of these recent updates, it's quite understandable. So if one were an actual "expert helper", they would know it's probably not the best tactic to immediately attack them for daring to complain.

That is, unless you believe a few DO have the right to come here & call others names, which is how it appears to many of us.

[A Former User]

A Former User last edited by

Originally posted by StevenCee:

I suppose it couldn't possibly be a response to the snarkiness, vitriol, and nasty put-downs the "expert helpers" are so often prone to dish out?

Right. The expert helpers here do not dish out snarkiness and nasty put-downs to anyone who does not deserve it.

Though you are 62 years old, you have behaved like a spoilt teenager since joining these forums. Your first thread that complained “I sure as hell don't know why the default is so wacky...... ”got a couple of replies, but you did not even acknowledge them.

Your second post, shouted: “I just upgraded to 12.11, which supposedly fixed some of the bugs but it's HORRIBLE!!!!!!”

Your third post, and second thread complained, “What kind of upgrade is this?”

Shall I go on? There are forum rules for the benefit of everyone. Those who ask politely nearly always get polite and prompt help. Those who post flame-bait, sometimes get flamed. None of us expert helpers come here to argue — we come to help, but some of the posters, especially in recent times, make that task very difficult. Even if we add the whiners to our ignore lists, they continue to disrupt the forums with their vitriol.

Yes, it is understandable if some users are frustrated by the new Opera version, but it has always been thus — it's not a new phenomenon since the change to Opera Blink, just a bit more intense and prolonged since it is taking a long time to add back much needed features. In 11 years I have seen the same kind of complaints at every major update, and the responses — both helpful, conciliatory, and vitriolic.

One would think after 62 years on the planet, you would have learnt some basic manners, but it seems not to be the case. Leushino can be difficult at times, I do not suffer fools gladly, but Blackbird is as patient as anyone on these forums — yet you just do not get the message.

[Deleted User]

Deleted User last edited by

Indeed, I can be "difficult" at times. I suppose my saving grace is that I recognize it; something that some posters simply will not countenance. No one bats a 1000, Pesala... not even you. We all make mistakes and it takes a humble man to admit to his mistakes. And humility, I might add, is a sign of strength, not weakness as some assume.

[stevenjcee]

stevenjcee last edited by

Originally posted by Pesala:

Leushino can be difficult at times, I do not suffer fools gladly, but Blackbird is as patient as anyone on these forums — yet you just do not get the message.

You truly do have way too much time on your hands, looking up all my posts, personal information, etc., and really man, these are the best you could come up with? Plus, there's a little concept you obviously haven't the slightest clue about, and that's C O N T E X T !

That post was a very mild seconding of the OP's post and thread title, and the next, saying "what kind of upgrade is this" is rude, & "acting like a spoiled teenager?" Really? But then Ive realized for quite some time you are a real expert on "spoiled teenager behavior"....

Pesala, you are a real trip. Manners? You have absolutely no leg to stand on, but then those in the deepest denial do tend to criticize others for the very failings they fail to see in themselves.... or as said quite eloquently by Carl Jung:
"The best political, social and spiritual work we can do is to withdraw the projection of our shadow onto others.”...

Please get a life....

[kamial]

kamial last edited by

Originally posted by leushino:

Originally posted by kamialll:

You are analysing a large amount of user data without taking in consideration of 'WHO is using' and 'HOW they are using'.

How do YOU know the methods by which Opera is analyzing its user base data? Do you work for Opera and therefore have information that the rest of us don't OR are you simply having a nice little rant this morning?

James,
Is it so important, where someone get information? Look in Google how they adapting user data. But actual more than 80% are not IT understanding.
Or have we use pc, tablet, phone just as a typewriter, or a "Hummer"-like american way of nothing.

I like to drive my car and not the opposite.

This "take it easy"-comments are not moving in a forward direction. If Evolution is made this way, than help us God!

Greetings
K.

(also an orthodox Christian)

[blackbird71]

blackbird71 last edited by

Originally posted by kamial:

... Is it so important, where someone get information?

If correct conclusions are to result, it certainly does. In your original post, you suggest Opera failed to take the usage "who" and "how" into consideration, and you concluded it was because of the influence of Opera Mobile. Leushino is simply challenging you that without your actually knowing what Opera did or did not consider and why, you can't legitimately assume anything about what data they collected, how they analyzed it, or what the 'numerical' results actually might have been... and certainly the many other factors they may (or may not) have weighed in arriving at the design map they did. So any conclusion drawn without knowing the information and methodology is inherently flawed and suspect, at best being no more than a wild guess.

Originally posted by kamial:

This "take it easy"-comments are not moving in a forward direction. If Evolution is made this way, than help us God!

"Take it easy" comments are not so much intended to move things forward or evolve anything involving the browser, but instead to help people accept reality: Opera has made its decision, it has committed the company to a new design direction, and has spent over 12 months moving down that path... it won't be turning back now. All the complaints in the world made in these forums at this point will accomplish absolutely nothing; and certainly, harshly-worded rantings and threats to leave Opera that are routinely made by some users will accomplish even less. Intelligent, polite feedback in the various developmental blogs, on the other hand, may carry a fair amount of weight - or at the very least, they'll be noted by developers.

[Deleted User]

Deleted User last edited by

Thanks for the wise words, blackbird71.

[kamial]

kamial last edited by

Originally posted by blackbird71:

Originally posted by kamial:

... Is it so important, where someone get information?

If correct conclusions are to result, it certainly does. In your original post, you suggest Opera failed to take the usage "who" and "how" into consideration, and you concluded it was because of the influence of Opera Mobile. Leushino is simply challenging you that without your actually knowing what Opera did or did not consider and why, you can't legitimately assume anything about what data they collected, how they analyzed it, or what the 'numerical' results actually might have been... and certainly the many other factors they may (or may not) have weighed in arriving at the design map they did. So any conclusion drawn without knowing the information and methodology is inherently flawed and suspect, at best being no more than a wild guess.

Originally posted by kamial:

This "take it easy"-comments are not moving in a forward direction. If Evolution is made this way, than help us God!

"Take it easy" comments are not so much intended to move things forward or evolve anything involving the browser, but instead to help people accept reality: Opera has made its decision, it has committed the company to a new design direction, and has spent over 12 months moving down that path... it won't be turning back now. All the complaints in the world made in these forums at this point will accomplish absolutely nothing; and certainly, harshly-worded rantings and threats to leave Opera that are routinely made by some users will accomplish even less. Intelligent, polite feedback in the various developmental blogs, on the other hand, may carry a fair amount of weight - or at the very least, they'll be noted by developers.

Thanks for your 'accurate' and 'wise' answer! Now understanding is on a 'good' way...

In the IT morass NOBODY is playing with open cards. NO Google, NO MS, NO apple, ..., and also Opera. It is very sad. In the beginning all players started more or less with enthusiasm. Now everything is about Big Profit and Big Data. I thing Opera is fighting for existing.

And this is very SAD! ... this World Wide War!

I prefer OPERA, but patience...

Did you realy mean that everything in a forum has a to be a factual argumentation? I thing not. It's simple - nobody is interested about. It's only a question of explanation of the own experience. Nobody is expecting something in deep.
Remember, in IT branch everything "is, as it is". No responsibility, please!

I give you a actual example:

Till the last month there is a new thing in new Opera mobile. A connection with G.analytics. Now advertizing is ABSOLUTELY following the special things we are looking for via Opera. And also things like a opening window with: "Mobogenie" download, ...and a lot of similar ...

Thing about! All our Comment Are Important! But not for the single EGO! Important for All Users!

Thank You for understanding! And Nobody is obliged to follow my opinion.

All things are to share expirience!

Regards to All!

[blackbird71]

blackbird71 last edited by

Originally posted by kamial:

... In the IT morass NOBODY is playing with open cards. NO Google, NO MS, NO apple, ..., and also Opera. It is very sad. In the beginning all players started more or less with enthusiasm. Now everything is about Big Profit and Big Data. I thing Opera is fighting for existing. And this is very SAD! ... this World Wide War!

In the beginning, the players were typically working out of their garages with only hopes and, as you note, "enthusiasm" to sustain them. But that hope was usually to make an eventual Big Profit, among other things. Those who were in it just for "fun" all left long before Big Profit resulted... and so they can't really be considered part of the long build-up that highlight's the eventual success of the effort. Idealism and fun are great, but they don't pay the bills, attract investor capital to enable growth, weather the inevitable business downs and ups, and so on.

Originally posted by kamial:

Did you realy mean that everything in a forum has a to be a factual argumentation? I thing not. It's simple - nobody is interested about. It's only a question of explanation of the own experience. Nobody is expecting something in deep.Remember, in IT branch everything "is, as it is". No responsibility, please!

When you state in a forum: "You are analysing a large amount of user data without taking in consideration of 'WHO is using' and 'HOW they are using'," you are making an accusation about Opera, saying they did not do something. That may be your opinion (in which case, it should have been prefaced as such), but it's not necessarily based on true facts, a point that @Leushino attempted to make to you. The simple truth is, we who are outside of Opera only know bits and pieces of the true facts about the totality of Opera's market/user research and the details of their analysis methods which led to their Blink Opera decision. So, yes, I do believe that forum statements should at least be factually based or else clearly convey they are the user's own opinion or drawn conclusion. To simply give expression to an emotional or an accusing comment that is not supported by verifiable facts is to stand with one's feet firmly planted in dead air... and it guarantees a fall.

I realize some of this issue may be due to language or cultural differences in expressing things. But successful communications occur only when both the sender and receiver derive and understand the same information from a message. Anything else is "noise" that obscures the message and blocks successful communications. When critical comments are involved, even in a forum, it's extremely important to clearly separate fact, emotion, and opinion from one another. Otherwise, flame battles and wars can and do result.

Originally posted by kamial:

I don't prefer answers like: "...you can use lower versions" or "... than use Firefox or Chrom"...
This are answers of people which are 'cooking only their own soup '.

I don't "prefer" such answers either. But sometimes, and this is one of those times, that is the only valid kind of answer. There have been many complaint threads and postings about all of this in these forums, beyond this one. If Opera was going to change their direction, they would have said so during the past year. But they have not. It's a "done deal", and Opera's not turning back. So, the only valid response to all the complaints now is to tell the complainers that the battle is over... Opera has made their decisions, restaffed, and spent their money. Opera users need to somehow adapt to that reality - there are no alternatives. As for myself, I've migrated mainly to Firefox. While I still hope Opera eventually gets its design into a form that users like you and I can enjoy once again, I'm getting on with my browsing life amidst these new realities.

[kamial]

kamial last edited by

Originally posted by blackbird71:

In the beginning, the players were typically working out of their garages with only hopes and, as you note, "enthusiasm" to sustain them. But that hope was usually to make an eventual Big Profit, among other things. Those who were in it just for "fun" all left long before Big Profit resulted... and so they can't really be considered part of the long build-up that highlight's the eventual success of the effort. Idealism and fun are great, but they don't pay the bills, attract investor capital to enable growth, weather the inevitable business downs and ups, and so on.

this is the simple 'every day fighting'-theory and is ending every 100years in disaster (take Christopher Clark "The Sleepwalkers" - History from 1914, 1929, 1933, ...).
here facts:
As known Carl Zeiss, Karl Benz and many other are not forgotten. They was working especially for the idealism, to create for everyone! Also Henry Ford, but in american way. Their company's are made more than Gates, Jobs,...
But Google, MS, Apple are implemented in the system of control. And all of us is thinking only about our 'current' bill, but unseeing the 'long term bills'.

if Christian have done this way(short term bills), where would be all our attempts for understanding? Captured in a routine 1929/1933 !?!

Originally posted by kamial:

Did you realy mean that everything in a forum has a to be a factual argumentation? I thing not. It's simple - nobody is interested about. It's only a question of explanation of the own experience. Nobody is expecting something in deep. Remember, in IT branch everything "is, as it is". No responsibility, please!

Originally posted by blackbird71:

When you state in a forum: "You are analysing a large amount of user data without taking in consideration of 'WHO is using' and 'HOW they are using'," you are making an accusation about Opera, saying they did not do something.

No!
I point out the miserable GUI adapted to a mass audience, which is not going in deep.

Originally posted by blackbird71:

That may be your opinion (in which case, it should have been prefaced as such), but it's not necessarily based on true facts, a point that @Leushino attempted to make to you. The simple truth is, we who are outside of Opera only know bits and pieces of the true facts about the totality of Opera's market/user research and the details of their analysis methods which led to their Blink Opera decision. So, yes, I do believe that forum statements should at least be factually based or else clearly convey they are the user's own opinion or drawn conclusion. To simply give expression to an emotional or an accusing comment that is not supported by verifiable facts is to stand with one's feet firmly planted in dead air... and it guarantees a fall.

Than make a XDA-like forum - Professional & responsible

Originally posted by blackbird71:

I realize some of this issue may be due to language or cultural differences in expressing things. But successful communications occur only when both the sender and receiver derive and understand the same information from a message. Anything else is "noise" that obscures the message and blocks successful communications. When critical comments are involved, even in a forum, it's extremely important to clearly separate fact, emotion, and opinion from one another. Otherwise, flame battles and wars can and do result.

You have absolutely right! But read the complete theme "Opera 15 disaster" and your 'wise' statements.

We are not Developers! This is not a Project Meeting!
Short example:
a car have placed the steering wheel in front. And if a company is 'designing' a new model with steering wheel for the rear seats, than long term users of this company products can share experience and tell opinions!
is this correct?
if someone is interested from the company, he can make a special announcements!

Originally posted by blackbird71:

complaint threads and postings about all of this in these forums, beyond this one. If Opera was going to change their direction, they would have said so during the past year. But they have not. It's a "done deal", and Opera's not turning back. So, the only valid response to all the complaints now is to tell the complainers that the battle is over... Opera has made their decisions, restaffed, and spent their money. Opera users need to somehow adapt to that reality - there are no alternatives.

I don't understand what is rational in such a understanding.
User really will walk in future on hands? Opera is deaf? ...because some "Schwarzenegger" is looking good in this 'modern way'.
Where are the eyes? Where are the facts?
For new Opera mobile-GUI: how finger are stressed, context-menu is complicated , copy&paste function is complicated , bookmarks transformed in simple albums loosing the overview and complicated
>>or is this done to have a better overview on private data (today's users present to Big Profit/Data >> next step slavery - George Orwell) <<
or ..., 'helping'-steps toward the Grandma&Grandpa level (sorry!)

Originally posted by blackbird71:

As for myself, I've migrated mainly to Firefox. While I still hope Opera eventually gets its design into a form that users like you and I can enjoy once again, I'm getting on with my browsing life amidst these new realities.

I agree with you! right!

But for my instance, i prefer THIS Opera GUI in the 'mobile Opera 12'. It has the BEST tactile feedback and is fulfilling human operating rules.
Today everything has to be 'changed' to be 'modern' because many of the 'users' are fallowing dogmas from trivial marketing managers. The anonymous 'Market' is responsible! Are we living for the Market?
In my post this was the opinion what was leading me in this forum.

If Opera can involve some specialists in a forum like XDA-developers (fallowed with interest by HTC, MS,...) right from the beginning of a new design, it would be better.

I use Opera 12. lab and classic and on Windows/mobile/7/BB/ till something is changed.

Thanks for understanding + kind greetings to all

[blackbird71]

blackbird71 last edited by

Originally posted by kamial:

...

Originally posted by blackbird71:

complaint threads and postings about all of this in these forums, beyond this one. If Opera was going to change their direction, they would have said so during the past year. But they have not. It's a "done deal", and Opera's not turning back. So, the only valid response to all the complaints now is to tell the complainers that the battle is over... Opera has made their decisions, restaffed, and spent their money. Opera users need to somehow adapt to that reality - there are no alternatives.

I don't understand what is rational in such a understanding. ...

At the risk of making a way-too-long post, I supply the following. I've been a forum reader here for many years, lurking at first silently to gain insight into Opera's free desktop browser and how I could adjust or repair it as needed. About 5 years ago, I decided it was time to put some wood back onto the woodpile for others to use, just as I had found it here when I needed it. So I joined the forum and started to try helping other users in whatever modest ways I could. In earlier days, these forums were tightly moderated and truly were 'Helps' forums... posts that ranted or were simply general complaints about new versions did occur, but most often were quickly locked or removed as not being part of the main forum focus. Normally, an explanatory reminder about courtesy, posting only for browser questions & problems, etc. was provided with the locking message. This is one such thread that once would have been quickly locked. The "helps" focus of these forums up until the last year or so was maintained by both other posters and the moderators chiming in whenever the focus on problems and questions was being disturbed, first with warnings, then with "discipline".

During those days, when this forum was focused on users helping other users with technical and user questions, the forum index and the topic titles were the means for a helper-user to quickly and efficiently locate thread titles with which he might be familiar in order to help others. The forum search engine (at the top right of every page) allowed users of all kinds to search the forum archives seeking past problem solutions, assuming the thread titles were clear and appropriately worded. I personally found this entire process to work effectively when seeking to help users with problems beyond my own direct knowledge.

However, when Opera announced the abandonment of the Presto engine for Opera's browsers, the forum began being increasingly impacted by negative or hostile threads that merely ranted, complained, and generally cluttered up the index with topics that were outside the previous forum focus. Legitimate threads began being disrupted by increasing off-topic posts that merely made snarky, sarcastic, or even obscene references to Opera and its new browser.

I explain all this to provide background and a sense of the atmosphere of this forum, previously and now. I frankly don't understand the reasons behind the relaxation of moderation here in recent months, though I have my own thoughts (which are really not relevant here)... but just a year or so ago, none of this would have been tolerated. The point is that this forum was originally set up by Opera for users to help other users, never as a feedback forum for rants and repetitive complaints. When the new browser design first emerged amid Opera's initial explanatory statements, there was an understandable outpouring of surprise, complaints, and so on in the forum. And, in the first couple of months, I and some others felt it appropriate to voice some specific dis-satisfactions and the reasons for them because we felt it might yet influence the design which was then at a fairly early stage. Whether that did or didn't influence design, however, the time for voicing those complaints (even if constructively) is long past. Repeating them over and over, in increasingly louder, harsher, or even obscene tones will simply not accomplish anything. I still come here to help users (though I only use Old Opera as my secondary browser these days), but it's getting harder and harder to help constructively amidst the growing atmosphere of negativity, complaining, rudeness, and lost focus that has now overtaken the forums.

So in light of all that, I point out once again some realities, not rationalities: Opera has set its course in a new direction, starting over a year ago. Presto is essentially dead forever for an Opera desktop browser. Nearly all the Presto developers have either long ago been re-assigned to Blink or left Opera ASA for other jobs. Contracts and business arrangements supporting the new engine have long-ago been made. Schedules and work assignments for Blink-related browser design have been made and followed for over a year. Opera is simply not going to reverse course, period. All the complaints and rants made in this forum (or any other) are not now going to change that business decision. The only thing that could change it would be demonstrably negative financial consequences in coming months and years, or if the company underwent a buyout or stockholder revolt of some kind. So if we're talking rationality, what could be less rational than users continuing to beat their heads against a forum wall, ranting and raving about something they (and certainly those helper-users who inhabit the forum) cannot change, corrupting the constructive use of that forum to help users with real questions and tech problems, when nobody from Opera is ever going to be influenced for the good by all those rants? If anything, it's merely destructive... and there's usually nothing rational about destruction for its own sake.