Opera = Chrome,,, Why bother with Opera at all?

therealpest

therealpest

1st let me be clear.

I've been using Opera and promoting it as better than everything else so far back that I had to dig around in the archives to find what version I started using. And it seems I started with 2.0. That said over the course of all these years I found that Opera allowed me to do things I simply couldn't do elsewhere.

It's not a question of what's "new" or trendy, or a really cool look, it's about functionality, usability, intuitive interface, tools.

I've only just installed Opera 20 on a new machine, win 7, and it would seem that I've been using an older version on my iMac for a long time. So what do I find?

Opera 20 is Chrome, which I had been using for a few months because someone suggested I check it out. Chrome is now my default browser. Why? cause it works, is uncluttered, and it's simple. But it has a problem. I can not alter how the pages are displayed.
it's a WYSIWYSW [what you see is what you're stuck with] browser. So I get on my horse and ride over to download Opera 20, because I need to be able to zoom in to 150+ to read from a Hi-rez monitor on some pages, and keep the other 4 windows i have open visible. Wrapping the web page is gone, so if you zoom in, text now is out of the window, UNLESS I make the opera window Full screen. This is one of the reasons I've been using Opera since forever.

EXCEPT text wrapping the page to fit the window is no longer available! and other unique to Opera tools and functions are gone!

I realize that most average users never knew some of the things one could do in Opera where there. But because I date back the the primordial soup of "the Internet" I can say I love all the changes that have made "The Net" what it is. New stuff however does not mean trash everything that used to be in the tool box.

As a mechanic I will always have use for a Hammer, a Screwdriver, and Wrenches. As an Engineer
I will always need pencil/pen and paper. As a Musician I will always need a Piano [digital or otherwise] that has real Keys.
As a chef I will always need Knives, Pots and Pans. As a Person I will always need a Plate and Flatware to eat with.

Just because something can be "improved" doesn't mean you throw away things that are useful. ALL of the old tools could still be there, assuming the higher-ups at Opera decide they should be there. It's that simple and I can illustrate why these "old" things are needed using Win 7 to Illustrate.

Premise: 1. If the classic widoze interface were useless why are there millions of DLs from hack and tweaks sites to enable the old interface for Explorer? [the answer is obvious] Because people need the old interface to make FULL use of their computer.

2.If you need a search function that allows detailed queries of your HD to find specific files or items, having a bland, featureless Explorer search tool is useless,,, and the result is? Go find a tweak, hack, plugin, or other 3rd party tool that does what WINDOZE Explorer use to do.

It is the same for Browsers. I've been using Opera since way back because is wasn't like everything else, and now it seems I'm being forced to choose from an assortment of Chrome variants, so I guess it would make sense that if Opera is Chrome with some of the buttons in different places, why don't I just go to the horses mouth and use Chrome? and yes it is a rhetorical question.

If you miss all those things that you used to be able to do with Opera, please speak up.
If I've missed the tools because they are hidden somewhere I haven't looked, sorry.

If your just gonna bash me because you like starting arguments, well, go elsewhere.

I'll be waiting and watching for the "powers that be" to put the tools back in the tool box, until then, I say au revoir Opera.

And I apologize for the rant, to all the "kiddies" who find me an "ol Fart". One day you will be around long enough to understand what I'm talking about. it's ok, You'll catch up.

lem729

lem729

You say you've been promoting Opera forever, but even before you saw Opera 20 (and weren't happy with the zoom feature), which suits my purposes (but everyone has there needs), you were already a Chrome person. That doesn't sound like someone who is an Opera person (until you suddenly saw the shocking Opera 20). So maybe you've been PUTTING US ON THERE. What gives,as -- even based on what you say -- you obviously were a Chrome person before you saw Opera 20. So stop with the I've been promoting Opera forever but am suddenly shocked tone.

Yes, Opera is using the Chrome engine, but it has some differences -- a Discover feature, a Stash, Off-Road Mode, and a speed dial, that lets you create folders in the speed dial -- which are major innovations, that certainly distinguish the browser from Chrome. And wow, there's full access to the Chrome extensions too. Not bad. And the ability to get speed a la Chrome is now there because of the blink rendering engine.. Okay, presumably you don't like these new Opera features, but many others do. Now because Opera switched its browser engine (to the Blink layout engine, a la Chrome), features have been, and are being added, but it takes some time to redo a browser. Yes, there are features I miss in the new Opera. I'd like the magic wand, the notes function, some of the old accessibility features, like browsing with the arrow keys) and the one's you mention could be useful. These features may yet come back, or at least some of them. Rome wasn't built in a day. Sorry that jumping from Chrome (your preferred browser (notwithstanding the "I've been promoting Opera forever stuff") to give Opera a try, remembering nostalgically the old zoom feature (and the wrapping of the web page), you're not happy.

In any event, Opera still has Opera 12.16, with the Zoom feature as you like it (and I think, the wrapping of the text). So download that one for everyday use, and use Opera 20 or Chrome, just for navigating the difficult web sites. It's an option in any event. Or go back to Chrome if you will, and check back on Opera now and then as changes are added, including, perhaps, some of the old features. Nothing stays the same. What is, is, until it isn't. Opera has a long history of being a creative innovator. I admire it for that, and nothing I see so far has me changing my view. Cheers, Mr. therealpest.

Deleted User

Deleted User

I think lem729 is an Opera traitor. He obviously doent know what hes talking about and thinks the newest version of Opera is better than past versions. Another Chrome fan boy lover.

lem729

lem729

I didn't say Opera 20 was better or worse than prior versions of Opera. Better is in the eye of the beholder. Now I have Opera 12.16 on my computer, but I choose to use as my primary browser Opera 20. That's my personal preference -- for the enhanced access to sites, greater speed, better speed dial (with the folder ability), and I like the Discover and Stash features. Does Opera 12.16 have features I wish Opera 20 had. Yes. I listed some of them in my earlier post. Did I not say: "there are features I miss in the new Opera. I'd like the magic wand, the notes function, some of the old accessibility features, like browsing with the arrow keys."

blackbird71

blackbird71

I think lem729 is an Opera traitor. He obviously doent know what hes talking about and thinks the newest version of Opera is better than past versions. Another Chrome fan boy lover.

Are you not able to carry on an intelligent discussion without name-calling? Spending a few more minutes reading posts for their full content, and spending less time conjuring up 'clever', sarcastic, ad hominem attacks might help a lot. The immature name-calling is what has led many users (and developers?) to dismiss out-of-hand many of the posts and threads that otherwise contain serious statements about the impact of missing Old Opera features and why they represent major user problems for various long-term Opera users.

Deleted User

Deleted User

LOL... lem... you must be receiving millions of dollars from Opera for making a positive statement about the new browser... right? Actually, I'm entirely with you. I don't buy the "I've been promoting Opera since forever" while at the same time using Chrome. Opera is NOT Chrome as you rightly point out. I look forward to what the Opera Team will continue to deliver but I know that users like us will be branded fanboys and shills.

blackbird71

blackbird71

... I don't buy the "I've been promoting Opera since forever" while at the same time using Chrome. Opera is NOT Chrome as you rightly point out. ...

@therealpest will, of course, have to answer for himself. But to me, it seems quite plausible that he used Old Opera versions for a long time on his iMac and recommended Opera to others, then got a new Win7 system and put Chrome on it simply to try that out, experiencing the limitations he's noted. As a result, he indeed may have downloaded and tried Opera 20 with the resulting opinions he's noted. His equating Opera to Chrome appears (to me) to stem simply from his focus on what he deems is necessary configurability in certain areas that is lacking for him in both Chrome and Blink Opera, a tempting comparison to make in part because they share the same engine ancestory and similar resultant architectural consequences that can impact users.

The problem, as in so many complaint postings, is that the original or later-posting users with negative experiences too often get carried away in their wording, applying sarcasm or exaggerated terminology to make or emphasize a point - or possibly simply out of frustration and emotion. I wish it were otherwise, because I still believe that patient, intelligent discussion brings out points of view and explanations that might yet have value in the development process. In any case, over-stating complaints results in flame-wars, and threads end up tangled in back-and-forth attacks between users, wherein the factual core of genuine user issues gets buried and even discredited. As I noted, I truly wish it were otherwise.

A Former User

Wow, all of that because of "Fit to Width"? Yawn...

I'll just leave this here: Opera 20 vs Chrome.

And since your thread is a rhetorical question that doesn't accept counter-arguments I'm flagging it so hopefully it's closed and you don't have to worry about being attacked by kiddies who are very inferior compared to you ok?

meridivs

meridivs

For me it's obvious - the Opera 20 design team had become the kind that could only hear themselves talk and the others praise some new nothings.

Opera was on the wrong path since some time so maybe it's time to just let it go and "grow-up" as some avangardist here was suggesting.

Deleted User

Deleted User

It's pretty much a moot point at this point. Opera ditched Presto, which meant they had to ditch literally everything and start over by taking Chromium and then putting in years of work on retrofitting features they already had to it.

I have been an Opera user for years. I actually paid for it when it was commercial back in the day. And right now, looking at Firefox with addons vs Opera 20+ with addons, Firefox is a much better Opera than Opera, and that is also where I will be going once 12.16 is too much of a hassle due to lack of development. End of an era.

A Former User

I might have said this elsewhere but take a look at Opera Dev 22 and the work the Opera team are doing to it. It is pretty much all back end work which once dealt with can free up some time to work on the front end. Do the haters think the back end work that ensures the browser can be safe, secure and as bug free as possible writes itself? Still, I don't hold much breath the haters will change their tune anytime soon, if at all.

albatros48

albatros48

I have been an Opera user for years. I actually paid for it when it was commercial back in the day. And right now, looking at Firefox with addons vs Opera 20+ with addons, Firefox is a much better Opera than Opera, and that is also where I will be going once 12.16 is too much of a hassle due to lack of development. End of an era.

You should not only consider the presence of addons, where most are useless.
Current Opera is far more stable, fast and quick starting as ever Firefox.
I use Firefox as second browser and it crashes often, which I never experienced with Opera.

Also have a look how much space more on the screen you have left with opera, which can be used for browsing.
Not only a nice appearance counts for me, I am primary for performance, reliability and practical use.

berng

berng

Opera ditched Presto which meant they ditched just about everything when starting over with Chromium.

I have been an Opera user for years. I paid for it when it was commercial back in the day. I have Firefox with about 20 addons vs Opera 20 with three. Opera is much better Firefox. With Presto it was a constant hassle using Opera due to web page rendering issues. I needed Firefox as a fallback. Now it looks like I can actually permanently dump Firefox.

Start of an era.

ps - These anecdotal comments, like mine above, are useless. What counts is usage statistics and income. Statistics are going up because of higher retention. That is what Opera looks at.

Opera stats
http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp
Feb 2014 - 1.9%
May 2013 - 1.6%

http://www.w3counter.com/globalstats.php?year=2013&month=5
March 2014 - 2.9%
May 2013 - 2.4%

There are significant differences, however, the trend in them seems to be an upwards count.

linuxmint7

linuxmint7

As a counter argument to the topic subject.

I'm pretty much a 99% Linux user most of the time so don't really get chance to use Opera (Blink) much, but do use it (Opera Developer) now and again to see how things are moving along. Still use Opera (Presto) 12.14 as my main (default) browser (and mail client) in Linux and Windows (when I'm there). And occasionally use Chromium to test sites that appear to not be working (correctly) in Opera (Presto) 12.14.

Ok!, just added a few extensions in Chromium to (hopefully) add functionality that is already native to Opera (Blink) on Windows that I use extensively, namely 'rocker gestures', 'auto scroll', a proper 'speed dial' among others.

I only got as far as those three (and I tried many alternative extensions), and was hoping to add more eventually, but promptly gave up. Because all I can say is, what a complete and utter nightmare. For a start 'rocker gestures' don't function properly, no matter which extension you choose, context menu keeps popping up all the time, only works on certain pages (not just exempt from google pages), no support for continuous button pressing to navigate (backwards or forwards) through many pages, some even disable the speed dial page ???.

Speed dial alternatives don't seem to add dynamic support for adding content (shortcuts, icons), no context menu support, no option to choose from open tabs or recently visited sites, just two text areas to type a URL and a label.

Auto scroll, surely this should be native, no ?. Anyway, even that doesn't work properly, only works on certain pages/sites (not just exempt from google pages), why ?, who knows.

You all moan at Opera for not having a fully functional (and kitted out) bookmarks manager, but at least it has the basics down, or at the very least alternative options to use for the time being (such as stash, speed dial ((with folder support)) until more functionality is eventually added.

The best 'I' can describe the alternative browsers (competition ?) from an Arden Opera user (that still uses Presto) is just one big bunch of ill conceived, mis-managed hacks. And Opera (Blink) is a much better proposition (and a breath of fresh air compared to the others) for someone coming from a history of using Opera Classic (Presto) pretty much exclusively. Though I am not about to give-up using Opera Classic any time soon, but I am pretty sure which path I will be taking when I will eventually have to (if/when a Linux version sees the light of day).

Deleted User

Deleted User

The best 'I' can describe the alternative browsers (competition ?) from an Arden Opera user (that still uses Presto) is just one big bunch of ill conceived, mis-managed hacks. And Opera (Blink) is a much better proposition (and a breath of fresh air compared to the others)

A breath of fresh air... I like that. Couldn't have described it better.

blackbird71

blackbird71

... Do the haters think the back end work that ensures the browser can be safe, secure and as bug free as possible writes itself? Still, I don't hold much breath the haters will change their tune anytime soon, if at all.

I believe the reason for a lot of the user "hate and discontent" seen here is a combination of disappointment, uncertainty, and frustration. Users, especially genuine "power users" and long-termers, develop usage patterns reliant on unique features and customizations in a browser. When those are disrupted by a major browser redesign, disappointment results. If it's uncertain whether those features and customizations will ever be returned, when, or in what form, then frustration sets in, along with a need to explain to Opera how they need the missing element. And for some of those users, that frustration turns to expressions of resentment and anger, as they try to convince Opera of their need. Those users' expressions will generally not exhibit "patience" or a clear understanding of the scope of "backend" work involved, mainly because the users see no schedule or are given any solid assurance that the missing features or customizations will ever return.

One of the key things that, to me, seems to make the Opera redesign uproar rather unique and more persistent in all the years I've observed the ebb and flow of PC software is that Opera has traditionally played its cards very close to its chest. It rarely announces anything about its work until it's at the moment of release... especially with regard to what are called "features" or "settings". And when it does, those announcements are usually buried in individual comments or blog entries of its developers. While all commercial software companies do this to some extent, Opera seems far more 'private' in this way than most. When the level of browser change and impact upon users has been as profound as this, one result is major user uncertainty about whether particular now-missing features or tweaks will ever reappear or how 'crippled' they might seem if they do. With such a vast array of customization and feature sets that were poured into Old Opera now either missing or significantly altered in New Opera, it's almost a slam-dunk that there will be a similarly vast array of unique disappointment-uncertainty-frustration experiences amongst users... no two users were impacted exactly the same way, so no two users would express their impact the same way.

Though "bookmarks" is a now-weary subject for many readers, it serves as a good example of the Opera redesign situation. First, users were assured the Blink changes to Opera would be "under-the-hood". Then as the first version appeared, users were told they didn't really need the missing bookmarks feature - Stash was the new, better way of doing things. As an uproar predictably exploded, inklings were finally given that just maybe bookmarks would be somehow addressed. Then the QAB appeared, limited, and without any real way of customizing it... to be followed with a hint or two that more 'might' be done on it. Now we have a QAB, renamed to a bookmarks bar, that is somewhat customizable, but without an integrated manager capable of importing/exporting from other browsers, etc - but with an inkling given users that a more comprehensive manager involving Stash, SpeedDial and Bookmarks might be forthcoming at some 'future' point. To a user dependent on a robust bookmarks feature in a browser, such a progression almost seems designed to maximize his frustration about what is going on and what to expect.

There are dozens and dozens of now-missing "features" that impact great numbers of previous Opera users in different ways, and the same 'bookmarks'-like pattern is playing out in hundreds of other unique ways for such users. As Old Opera users move to New Opera for the first time, in many cases utterly ignorant of all that's occurred this past year, these "realization/frustration bombs" just keep going off over and over. I don't honestly expect Opera to change its culture to become more forthcoming about its specific "feature" plans, but I do honestly believe that's precisely what is needed to recoup the situation. Unless some of the nagging uncertainty is removed, the frustration and "need to express" will continue for a very long time to come... and the "bombs" will just keep going off.

Deleted User

Deleted User

Agreed... the frustration will continue but the bombs (as it were) do not need to keep going off IF people would behave civilly. What good does vulgarity do? What possible good outcome can result from insulting the developers or claiming Opera has sold out to the devil? And when Opera is defended against such outrageous claims and statements (and why shouldn't it be defended?) what good can come from attacking the defender and claiming he is a shill and should just shut up and go away? The answer is: no good whatsoever. It's one thing to be frustrated and present your feature requests respectfully and quite another to start posts attempting to boycott Opera and "set off bombs" as you have described it. And undoubtedly I will now be attacked for having the audacity to speak up in Opera's defense.

blackbird71

blackbird71

Agreed... the frustration will continue but the bombs (as it were) do not need to keep going off IF people would behave civilly. What good does vulgarity do? What possible good outcome can result from insulting the developers or claiming Opera has sold out to the devil? And when Opera is defended against such outrageous claims and statements (and why shouldn't it be defended?) what good can come from attacking the defender and claiming he is a shill and should just shut up and go away? The answer is: no good whatsoever. It's one thing to be frustrated and present your feature requests respectfully and quite another to start posts attempting to boycott Opera and "set off bombs" as you have described it. And undoubtedly I will now be attacked for having the audacity to speak up in Opera's defense.

On that we totally agree. Vulgarity and obscenity are the last resort of people who lack confidence in what they're asserting to be true. In reality, they undercut the case they're trying to present, alienating the very readers who might be able to do something about the situation. And it's not "defending Opera" to point that out.

I neither ask nor expect other users to view Old Opera's usefulness and New Opera's limitations which I perceive in exactly the same way I see them. I do expect and appreciate the opportunity to respectfully "make my case" in Opera's forums and blogs, even on multiple occasions, provided I do so courteously and with the understanding that Opera is under no obligation to meet my expectations or needs. What troubles me are those users, especially with complaints similar to mine, who display temper tantrums in the forums and thereby turn off even undecided users and developers from openly hearing the complaints with a mindset framed to deal with them. What troubles me even more is that this spirit of erupting explosively and abusively the moment one's expectations aren't met has become something of a characteristic of the age, and it is leading to ever more prevalent forms of "rage" in cultures the world over. That it is certainly not a good thing.

Deleted User

Deleted User

What troubles me are those users, especially with complaints similar to mine, who display temper tantrums in the forums and thereby turn off even undecided users and developers from openly hearing the complaints with a mindset framed to deal with them. What troubles me even more is that this spirit of erupting explosively and abusively the moment one's expectations aren't met has become something of a characteristic of the age, and it is leading to ever more prevalent forms of "rage" in cultures the world over. That it is certainly not a good thing.

I see it as the age of entitlement. You (Opera) OWE me. You (Opera) must do exactly as I say and when I say it. I don't like the way you have changed your browser and now I'm entitled to demean you, threaten you and even encourage others to boycott you UNTIL such time as you come to your senses and do as I say. And I don't CARE what you or anyone else says. I don't CARE that the browser is free. I'm still entitled to have it just the way I want it.

Frankly, there were some things about Opera Presto that I now miss. I've made a few requests many months ago in the appropriate forum but I'm not beating a drum daily to demand my requests be met. Maybe patience comes with age, I don't know. I suspect that some of the more vociferous, angry posters are relatively young and immature.

lem729

lem729

Good point, Leushino. Opera is free. As such it's a gift. We can choose between different products, and encourage developers. But being angry here over my rights in a free product is ludicrous. We don't risk losing money. They (the developers)do! I wish (smile) I were younger, even if -- haha -- angry. Like you Leushino, I have features I wish were still there from Opera Presto, But what there is here on the desktop, and Coast with Opera, and Opera for Android are pretty well done. Like wow. And Firefox, IE and Chrome are well done also. For some reason, even with this changed Opera, I prefer and enjoy the look, and what it does. I will end up using the browser that I enjoy most. For the moment, I still prefer Opera.