Why Use Opera?
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A Former User last edited by
@wojcieche said in Why Use Opera?:
Ctrl+Tab
I meant RMB+scroll but cannot edit anymore to correct it.
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A Former User last edited by
@sgunhouse I understand that but the "fact" remains... most users don't want a suite. And that is the bottom line and the reason why Vivaldi will never really take off. It's been designed for a very small niche and therefore has this built-in propensity for future failure. I still say that within a few years we'll find Vivaldi a curiosity of the past. Opera has a much better opportunity for growth for the simple reason that it has money behind it along with a much greater potential for growth.
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A Former User last edited by
@wojcieche Psuedo-Opera most certainly is derogatory or you would not have used it. Facts speak for themselves and you're denying them. Vivaldi's days are numbered unless they find a way to make money to keep them afloat. Perhaps charging users for the suite might give them more time but in the end... without enough users they'll fail.
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A Former User last edited by
@ayespy Why do you find it imperative that you come over to the Opera forum and trumpet the wonders of Vivaldi? If you like such a backward suite... great. But why denigrate Opera in the Opera forum? Would you appreciate a bunch of Opera users coming over to Vivaldi's forum and ridiculing it? I doubt it.
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A Former User last edited by
@coffeelover And if present trends continue, Vivaldi will have plenty of users to keep it afloat. Next you will be telling us that Harley Davidson will soon go out of business because too few people buy its product. A Harley isn't for everyone - but it's for enough people that the company's future is assured.
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A Former User last edited by
@ayespy Why do you find it imperative that you come into Opera's house and preach the wonders of another browser? Vivalid? Big deal. I don't want it and every person with whom I'm acquainted doesn't want it. It's a niche product for a very small percentage of people who love to tinker. Period. Go and enjoy your backward suite. And good luck to you.
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A Former User last edited by A Former User
@coffeelover said in Why Use Opera?:
Why do you find it imperative that you come over to the Opera forum and trumpet the wonders of Vivaldi?
I don't find it imperative. Truth told, the comment by @sgunhouse drew me here. Knowing him from the Vivaldi community, I was surprised to see it, and a little taken aback.
If you like such a (redacted insult) suite... great.
Yes - I think it's great, too.
But why denigrate Opera in the Opera forum?
I didn't denigrate Opera. I did express my frustration at their path, but I suppose I'm still a bit mad at them for abandoning me. I have never done so on the Chrome or Firefox forums, but then I never cared about them, nor thought they cared about me. You know, "there's no fanatic like a convert." I also have nothing bad to say about women I never knew. A lover who jilted me, however...
Would you appreciate a bunch of Opera users coming over to Vivaldi's forum and ridiculing it? I doubt it.
It happens more than you would imagine. I see it regularly. I tolerate it fine. It's a signal that Vivaldi has some gaps to fill.
By the way, I am a coffee addict. What sort of brew do you favor?
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A Former User last edited by
@ayespy Okay. You're being reasonable so I should as well. I like Seattle's best.. dark brew. It keeps me on my toes when my wife is looking for me.
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A Former User last edited by A Former User
@coffeelover Seattle's Best is a tad rich for my pocketbook. We consume entirely too much of it around here to be careless about the cost. It's good, but I enjoy fresh-ground (by me) Jose's from Costco equally, and find the economic pinch bearable. Something like $4.38/lb is not bad. My preference overall is 100% Arabica, grown in either Colombia or Hawaii.
And, by the way, I can appreciate your position on the browser. I used Opera from abt 2000, and was an avid (rabid?) defender of it on this site even after the change, from 2013 to 2015. I get loyalty. Had it not abandoned support for my use patterns, or if an offering that did support my use patterns had not appeared, I'd probably be loyal still. For me, once I got used to Opera, trying to use IE, Edge, FF or Chrome was always a bit like sitting on marbles.
You have a lovely day.
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A Former User last edited by
@ayespy I have to add that I'm not entirely a fanboy of Opera. I'm deeply disappointed in Opera's sale to the Chinese consortium as a result of which I do not use it for certain things that I consider sensitive. I can appreciate your loyalty to Jón von Tetzchner's new browser due to your work flow as you mention. I've even played around with it a bit but found it too slow about a year ago. I think it's clever the way you diffused me by finding common ground to build upon. I like that. You also have a great day.
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A Former User last edited by A Former User
@coffeelover said in Why Use Opera?:
@wojcieche Psuedo-Opera most certainly is derogatory or you would not have used it.
I need to use some term to distinguish the real, original Opera from a very different application that received the same label, but has almost nothing in common. I like to be precise and I believe this is a fair and perfectly adequate term. I hope you can understand my point of view.
Facts speak for themselves and you're denying them. Vivaldi's days are numbered unless they find a way to make money to keep them afloat. Perhaps charging users for the suite might give them more time but in the end... without enough users they'll fail.
I am not sure which facts I deny :-), but worry not - Vivaldi has a working business model and is earning. And with some 3+ billion internet users a few millions will appreciate it to keep it afloat. It is not such niche as you seem to think - see more on this below.
@coffeelover said in Why Use Opera?:
@sgunhouse I understand that but the "fact" remains... most users don't want a suite. And that is the bottom line and the reason why Vivaldi will never really take off. It's been designed for a very small niche and therefore has this built-in propensity for future failure. I still say that within a few years we'll find Vivaldi a curiosity of the past.
Actually... it is much different.
The sad truth I see is that nowadays all major browsers no longer compete with quality, as they are very similar - stripped down from features. Instead they compete with... distribution channels. Advertising and bundling to push the browser onto as many users' computers as possible, often without their explicit permission or even knowledge. And once it installs, user checks what is this new icon and starts using, as it makes no much difference to him from his similar other browser... It cannot be called a conscious choice based on browser quality and features and even more you cannot tell if user refuses to use a suite - especially if he hasn't tried any (meaning Vivaldi as the only representative). So you take your "facts" that users do not like suite from nowhere really...And the reality is that suite is not for geeks only. Nobody says user has to use 100% functionality (even I do not) and change every setting to appreciate an application. The reality is that a few handy features can win the heart of the user, especially if he hasn't noticed any special features in his current browser. Some users appreciate split screen view of tabs, some appreciate integrated notes, some appreciate screenshots, some web panels. When they are shown a few handy things which their current browser didn't have, they can start appreciating the suite, even when they use just a small part of the available functionality. And if the UI is clean and simple, other features do not disturb, but still with time user can discover some more of the build-in features and become tied to the suite even more.
Just wanted to get this out for your consideration since you seem to have a very different perception of the matter. Have a great day!
Oh, and I brew coffee too
I prefer light-roasted from dripper Hario V60. I am not from US, so 100% Arabica specialty coffee brands I use will probably not be of interest for you... -
leocg Moderator Volunteer last edited by
During my time as an Opera Presto user, it being a suite was never really a problem for me. on the contrary, I used to use it as an argument to promote Opera.
However, after the release of Opera Chromium and as I got used to it, I began to get caught many times wondering if all those features were really necessary. And I found out that, at least for me, many of them weren't.
And I guess this is the key point to me: People nowadays seem to prefer to keep things the more simple as possible. The increasing and the success of the mobile platforms and their apps show that.
Yes, people want features but those that really can help improving their experience on the web and, above all, people want their favorite pages working. And it seems to me that Opera started aiming at those ones and try to get more market instead of continue as a product to a niche.
The fact is that things changed a lot since Opera started back in the 1990's. Computers has changed, the web has changed, the world has changed, the world has changed, so I think we have different contexts now and back then.
When I started using Opera, about 20 years ago, installing it from a floppy disk, the web as we know today was just starting, few people had a computer at home. Today people carry a computer in their pockets thousands of times more powerful than the ones used at home two decades ago and the Internet is what we are seeing now.
So different situations, different needs.
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A Former User last edited by
@wojcieche Since you're a coffee lover, I find no fault in you (to quote Pontus Pilate). I think I over-reacted to your post and that of ayespy's. Forgive my unwarranted defense of Opera. Best wishes to you both (and Steve as well).
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A Former User last edited by
@leocg said in Why Use Opera?:
When I started using Opera, about 20 years ago, installing it from a floppy disk, the web as we know today was just starting, few people had a computer at home. Today people carry a computer in their pockets thousands of times more powerful than the ones used at home two decades ago and the Internet is what we are seeing now.
It appears we both began with Opera at the same time, Leo.
Those days are now far behind us. The online world has radically changed but sometimes I wonder if the change has been for the better. I just don't know. -
blackbird71 last edited by@leocg said in Why Use Opera?:
... So different situations, different needs.
This!!!
For many years I used Olde Opera precisely because it fit nearly all my browsing needs, just as my needs had evolved around the many features of that browser. When Opera elected to follow the Blink pathway, I was a rather ardent Opera defender for a time in Opera's old forums amidst the truly massive outcry against that change. My key point then was for users to be patient and give Opera's developers time to integrate various key features (whose losses were being loudly decried) into the new browser. As time went by, some of the key 'dropped' features needed for my work flow were indeed restored to the evolving design (bookmarking, in particular). But others were not, and even the bookmarks feature itself lacked certain sub-features that were very significant to me (eg: the ability to set bookmarks bar titles to text only, since I need 50-70 bookmarks on a given single-line toolbar and abbreviate their titles severely). During that time, I often found myself increasingly agreeing with @ayespy's postings in the old Opera forums trying to persuade the developers and posters of the need for what we viewed as better control, features, and customization capability in New Opera, but to diminishing avail. Opera's focus had shifted.
What was actually occurring was both a change in the way the Opera browser was targeted and a change in (or more accurately, my recognition of) the importance of various detail requirements of my work flow using browsers. Opera was now developing a browser for 'the marketplace', whereas I had evolved solid work patterns dependent on my having detailed control/customization of browser settings, functions, and features. Thus, for a long time, I persisted in using Olde Opera (12.18) for much of my work-related browsing and both New Opera and Firefox for my casual browsing. Fortunately, as Olde Opera became unacceptably obsolete in terms of website compatibility, Vivaldi came upon the scene. It allowed me the detailed customization and features in areas that my work flow had come to demand. It's design mantra was that it was "a browser for our friends", meaning those users who require detail browser functionality and control. Hence, it's a browser that is actually a configurable tool.
Today, I have different needs than most of the users now targeted by Opera. So I use Vivaldi for my primary browsing and New Opera for some casual browsing. And I experiment a bit with Otter. They're all good browsers given the roles they're intended to play... but they're each aimed at different user needs and priorities. Frankly, I'm glad they all exist. And they're free...
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A Former User last edited by
@blackbird71 said in Why Use Opera?:
It's design mantra was...
"Its"?
And it's free!
Mandela's free!
Well, I use Opera 36 for some casual browsing, too. Because it's neat and very comfortable to scroll and handle.
But not only that casual, some tasks of business because it feels secure. TS360 integrated. -
newworldman last edited by
@sgunhouse I have Vivaldi installed but so far haven't used it very heavily. But I did get the impression it's not yet quite as polished as Opera.
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newworldman last edited by
@wojcieche In terms of the way Opera 15+ came about I agree with you. I'm not especially fussed about needing to change the name but certainly they could have left Opera 12.x as the default while informing users that there will be a radical incompatible change to Opera 15 in due course and Opera 12 will be patched for the next year or whatever. During that time 15 would then get better and better. Of course, there would still be many unsatisfied customers but at least they wouldn't have been suddenly faced with an initial bare-bones Opera 15 for a new installation. Personally, it didn't affect me as, although I had old Opera installed, I was a very light occasional user. Firefox Classic -> Quantum caused similar fireworks because of the junking of the more powerful legacy extensions model.
Re: Opera vs Vivaldi design approaches, I can see a need for both. Most people, most of the time do want something bare bones. That's one reason why Chrome took off. In my case its simplicity was a reason why it didn't take off for me and I stuck with Firefox back then.
In the current situation, Vivaldi is more customisable than Opera but Opera is customisable enough for me for most purposes. But when I have a need to do some specific task I might turn to Vivaldi. E.g., I like its screen-split feature when I'm reading technical content for example, so I can refer to explanations to diagrams or formulas. No doubt Vivaldi has lots of other features that I've yet to discover that I might find usable. It takes time, just as it's taken me time to customise Opera the way I like.
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newworldman last edited by
@coffeelover My take is that in a Lounge forum we can be a bit more free-wheeling. But in the help forums I wouldn't appreciate posters banging on about other browsers - unless it's along the lines of "can Opera have a feature similar to browser X's, blah, blah" rather than "Opera sucks, use Chrome."
