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Where is the menu bar?

  • And I never claimed I DID need any of those things. You are the whiners that NEED this and that in order to function, not I (i.e. Integrated mail has been mentioned). I don't need Discover, Speed Dial, Stash, Chrome extensions compatibility, keyboard shortcuts, privacy mode, zoom etc etc etc. The truth is, I get along fine without most of them and I'm certainly not limping along. There is a difference between need and want. Learn it and stop being so disingenuous, Blackbird.:whistle:

  • Originally posted by sotabaka:

    Change is an inevitable part of progress, and nothing stays the same for ever. I can remember when you had to dial a phone number by turning a wheel with holes in it.

    Until a year ago, when I still had a POTS telephone, the switchbox still understood pulse dialing, and it was still possible to tap a phone number substituting for a broken rotary dial. Or you could synthesize the dialing tones with any computer. :lol:

    I guess such sending of numbers might be handy when a long code must be typed in a GSM phone. But I don't know how they send numbers.

    I wonder if some telecoms still have modem pools running. Those a probably very few.

  • Originally posted by sotabaka:

    They decided to get rid of the steering wheel and use the small rearview mirror control button instead

    It's a very weak analogy, but it would be feasible to remove a car's steering wheel and replace it with a joystick or some other device. No car manufacturer has yet gone beyond the concept stage as far as I know.

    Please learn to use the quote link. Select some text in a user's post, and click the Quick Quote link below it. Learning new skills is easier for young people than for those of us who are getting old. At 37 you're not too old to adapt to new technology. Currently, I don't have a clue how to use a mobile phone or iPad, but if that was all I had I would soon learn to use it to send emails etc.

    Originally posted by Pesala:

    I really feel sorry for those who simply refuse to adapt to the way things are. Change is an inevitable part of progress, and nothing stays the same for ever. I can remember when you had to dial a phone number by turning a wheel with holes in it.

    The fact is, Opera has had no top menu bar by default for many years now. I have adapted very easily to using the button menu, not because I had to, but because it works just as well as the top menu, whether using the keyboard or mouse.

    Originally posted by sotabaka:

    Who cares about space on the screen?

    I think most users do, even more so now that mobile devices have smaller screens. IE has had autohide of menus and toolbars for years so that the top menu bar is never visible until it's needed.

    Originally posted by videobruce:

    One would think this guy is another Cheney or Rumsfeld from the Republican gestapo.

    Lose your temper and lose the argument. Some people are so attached to their views and opinions that they cannot remain civil in any discussion. I see that Godwin's Law is really true.

  • All we ask is the option to have it. Why is that such a problem? 😕

  • There are currenty too few commands in the menu under the Opera Button to fill a menu bar with. They would first have to add functionality back in, show bookmarks as a menu (leaving the bar as an option to organize them), and perhaps move some settings from the "wasteful" Settings Page on a quickly accessible menu (checkboxes for show images, to enable do not track, etc). But then you'd miss the lovely background picture of people jumping from a cliff.

  • No matter how many times everyone says it, some are just going to argue that this is progress and get used to it. Fine. A ton of users will move to other browsers who still have more options than Opera now has.

    The main reason I never ever ever use Chrome is that it has no menu bar. I use it constantly. I don't always have a keyboard within easy reach so a mouse click works great to navigate and read sites. Without a menu bar, unless I want to learn these mouse gesture things (which I've never figured out because I use a mouse with a trackball and I just don't care to learn them) then I'm stuck needing to move my keyboard closer to me or wherever.

    We're annoyed with the way Opera has decided to mimic Chrome. Who wouldn't be? The amount of users using Opera will tell the powers that be how much we are annoyed and, if they care, they'll fix it. If not, they'll just keep doing whatever they want to do and we're stuck with it.

    I know I'm not in the least bit of a hurry to try Windows 8 and doubt I ever will be. To me, that's a phone user interface, not a desktop one. It's ridiculous and means I have to take 20 some years of learning and relearn something -- most people are very resistant to doing this unless they are paid to do so (you have to do what you have to do at work, not at home).

    So time will tell how this pans out. I'm very disappointed. As many have said, Chrome already exists. Who needs another Chrome???

  • Originally posted by bjdobson:

    Without a menu bar, unless I want to learn these mouse gesture things (which I've never figured out because I use a mouse with a trackball and I just don't care to learn them) then I'm stuck needing to move my keyboard closer to me or wherever.

    You can still use the Button menu with a trackball.

  • Originally posted by j7nj7n:

    perhaps move some settings from the "wasteful" Settings Page on a quickly accessible menu (checkboxes for show images, to enable do not track, etc).

    Not to mention reimplement proxy servers in a sensible manner. Although I generally advocate listening to the OS,* proxy servers are just too primitive and awkward to use in Windows itself.

    * For example, why must the Chrome updater run a freaking service at all times instead of simply hooking into the Windows scheduler?

  • I agree about proxy servers. As I see them, they are specific to browsing (to remove part of content, or to use another address to bypass bans) and rarely needed for other applications that communicate over the internet, because they are more selective and don't filtering. To make all traffic of a computer go through another server, a web proxy is not enough anyway, and some form of VPN tunnel is needed.

    But proxy servers need a dialog. Many other options can be put directly on a menu like the quick preferences menu in Opera was. Irrespective on whether this menu gets a hotkey, you would find it on the bar in a particular place (I guess to the center-right of the screen), and quickly access it without hiding the page you're on, or waiting. The "new way" of opening dialogs in full screen doesn't make sense.

  • I don't need the menu bar to browse web sites. However, I *do* need the menu bar to browse web sites *comfortably*. And for me, the function of a browser is to browse comfortably, so the menu bar is as needed as the back button or the scroll bar.

    No one is asking to bring the menu bar back by default. Just as an option. I don't know why it is so hard for some users to respect what other people need in their browser.

  • Originally posted by leushino:

    And I never claimed I DID need any of those things. You are the whiners that NEED this and that in order to function, not I (i.e. Integrated mail has been mentioned). I don't need Discover, Speed Dial, Stash, Chrome extensions compatibility, keyboard shortcuts, privacy mode, zoom etc etc etc. The truth is, I get along fine without most of them and I'm certainly not limping along. There is a difference between need and want. Learn it and stop being so disingenuous, Blackbird.:whistle:

    There's no disingenuous-ness to it. If a person posts that he "needs" a particular feature, implemented in a particular way, you and others have repeatedly replied that there's some other way to do the job (thus arguing his particular, stated 'need' is merely a 'want'). But that neither automatically responds to nor negates his stated "need". Not without seriously considering why he specifically "needs" it in the form or manner he has described. Speed dials are NOT toolbars. Toolbars are NOT data lists. Random lists are NOT organized, foldered records. All the protestations in the world will never turn a Zebra into a Quarterhorse, though they may both be made to do similar things. Alternate methods of usage may or may not be fully applicable to a particular user's situation... and his "need" may or may not thereby be reduced to a "want".

    I listed a number of New Opera features/functionalities that are not of themselves intrinsic responses to "needs" involved in basic browsing, simply because they are only forms of implementation responding to genuine needs. They are merely how the developers "wanted" to instill them into the browser to meet 'needs', for their own reasons. The genuine need exists in browsers to retrieve previously-accessed websites, but the "wants" of New Opera's developers for various SpeedDial and Stash attributes led them to implement a response to the bookmarking 'need' in that manner, and to initially advertise them as full replacement for bookmarking. However, those developers 'wants' for that solution are no more compelling than a user's differing 'wants'. The problem, of course, is that all forms of implementation have limitations which will impact different users in different ways. And a user whose methodology "wants" one form of implementation may have major problems with the limits of another form of implementation... even to the degree where his "need" for the attributes of one implementation is not being met by another implementation.

    Where we do perhaps agree is that New Opera is what it is. It's a free browser, and users have to either accept it as it exists or not. I believe where we strongly disagree is whether or not users have a reason to complain about the feature set of the offered browser, whether they have a right to voice such complaints here, and whether it will do any good in terms of future design changes to New Opera. I believe there are grounds for complaint (provided those complaints are respectfully made - which has unfortunately not been done in all too many posts), that there are few if any other vehicles for complaint besides these forums, and that they will do (and have already done) some good in influencing design. If Opera ASA is not listening to feedback, then we're both in trouble. Sadly, the waters have been made murky by Opera's initial aloofness to user complaints and by the nasty, disrespectful tone of many on both sides of the dialogue. A complaint is not a whine - though it can become that. Candor is not disrespect - though it can become that via negativity. To the extent that I may have somehow participated in any excessiveness, I do apologize.

  • Originally posted by videobruce:

    All we ask is the option to have it. Why is that such a problem? 😕

    Asking for options is not a problem at all. Refusing to accept that it's not available is the problem. There's a desktop wish-list for feature requests.

    Software is not like a restaurant where you can order whatever is on the menu, but even then you may be told that it's not available. If that happens, do you just continue ranting that that is what you need and that nothing else will do, or do you order something else, or do you just go to another restaurant?

  • Originally posted by blackbird71:

    To the extent that I may have somehow participated in any excessiveness, I do apologize.

    No need to apologize. I was wrong to pursue that tack so vigorously and with some trigger words. What can I say other than, I'm sorry.

  • Originally posted by leushino:

    Originally posted by blackbird71:

    To the extent that I may have somehow participated in any excessiveness, I do apologize.

    No need to apologize. I was wrong to pursue that tack so vigorously and with some trigger words. What can I say other than, I'm sorry.

    No sorrow is needed. My fondest wish is that all the hostile rhetoric by so many posters in threads such as these would somehow be toned down. It's all too easy to get stirred up myself by all the unfriendly postings out there lately, and let that creep into my own posting. Sometimes, I find it's good to just step outdoors and take a fresh breath - though at 8 degrees F here, that would be a riveting experience right now.

  • Originally posted by blackbird71:

    Originally posted by leushino:

    Originally posted by blackbird71:

    To the extent that I may have somehow participated in any excessiveness, I do apologize.

    No need to apologize. I was wrong to pursue that tack so vigorously and with some trigger words. What can I say other than, I'm sorry.

    No sorrow is needed. My fondest wish is that all the hostile rhetoric by so many posters in threads such as these would somehow be toned down. It's all too easy to get stirred up myself by all the unfriendly postings out there lately, and let that creep into my own posting. Sometimes, I find it's good to just step outdoors and take a fresh breath - though at 8 degrees F here, that would be a riveting experience right now.

    I'm not sure I would describe my feeling as one of sorrow but definitely a dash of remorse could be tossed into the mixture. A co-worker of my wife was seriously injured in a traffic accident last night. Just yesterday I sat in the lounge waiting for my wife to finish for the day and that co-worker was there at her desk... cheerful and unaware that in a few hours she would be lying in a hospital bed. Only six months ago her husband was killed a few miles from our town. I mention this to remind myself to get a grip on my perspective of "these things" and to try and prioritize what is and what is not important.

    We're on the coast so our temps generally don't get down as low as yours (we're low 50's right now) but I agree with you that stepping outside from time to time and smelling the fresh air would probably be a good thing. Our son and wife just left for Kauai this morning and I'm fighting the urge to go outside and scream: "Unfair!"

    I completely agree regarding the tone of the various discussions and unfortunately I have my own portion of the blame to bear. I'm not sure if "any" of this emotion has impacted Opera's development team but I guess only time will tell.

  • Originally posted by Pesala:

    Yes. What you want may be a picture of a naked mermaid, but what you need in a browser is the ability to navigate and select functions without too much difficulty. For that, you do not need a menu bar at the top. You way want one, but want and need are two different things. You could easily use shortcuts such as Alt P to access the settings, etc. After a month of not being able to use the top menu, if you had no other choice of browser, you would soon learn to do what you need to do without it.

    Seriously? I thought that I needed a good browser that meets all my criteria of convenience.

    And why should I know about all the keyboard shortcuts, why? Why do you force me to use the awkward interface? I need comfort does, not what sort of chromium (if I liked the chrome - I would have used the chrome). I like the old opera for user-friendly interface and an abundance of features. Now it turns out that instead of a good browser, we have a useless piece of crap, correct that in accordance with the requests of users probably nobody is going.

  • And " this", Blackbird, is part of what we were discussing. 😞

  • Originally posted by raven-kg:

    Why do you force me to use the awkward interface?

    No one is forcing you to use Opera 18, but it is you who is being awkward, not the interface. The menu works just as well wherever it is. If you hate keyboard shortcuts, then use the mouse. It takes just one click to open the menu.

    Originally posted by raven-kg:

    I like the old opera for user-friendly interface and an abundance of features.

    Now you're conflating two completely different issues. They are also mutually exclusive terms. The abundance of features in Opera 12 or earlier made for a very complex interface, which was not at all user-friendly for new users. Those of us who have been using Opera for years, have grown to know and like it, plus with the GUI customisation we have been able to configure it exactly as we like it.

    For example, I Fixed the Button Menu to show the top menu bar items in exactly the same order, but of course they are vertical rather than horizontal. I also stripped out things I do not need, and added extra things that I do.

    Configurability may return later, but its absence does not make the user-interface unfriendly. It is just that you are not accustomed to it yet. It is only my opinion, no one is forcing you to use Opera 18, but I think you will have to adjust to it, as it seems unlikely to return any time soon.

  • Originally posted by Pesala:

    The menu works just as well wherever it is.

    The top-left icon is for window controls, the same that can also be accessed through Alt+Space or by right-clicking on the titlebar. Saying the menu's working fine while it's disrupting other functionality is disingenuous. I do agree with one thing though: a lack of visible access keys is a lack of visible access keys no matter where the menu is.

    Originally posted by Pesala:

    Now you're conflating two completely different issues. They are also mutually exclusive terms. The abundance of features in Opera 12 or earlier made for a very complex interface, which was not at all user-friendly for new users.

    You're conflating user-friendliness and something like familiarity (with IE or Chrome). That's one potential aspect, but if emphasized at the cost of efficiency and satisfaction, it's not very user-friendly at all. QuHNo posted a very good article about that yesterday: http://asktog.com/atc/the-third-user/

    Originally posted by Bruce Tognazzini:

    Before the invention of the personal computer, I spent fifteen years selling consumer electronics and teaching sales techniques. (I was both one of Apple’s first employees and first dealers.) I found the best way to motivate sales was to demonstrate ease-of-learning and ease-of-use while simultaneously talking about power. Apple used to do that, with its ads for “munitions-grade” computers. Now, it’s all toy-piano music and nursery-school software.

    You have ease-of-learning and ease-of-use simply because just about all features (except the Konami code) can be discovered within about five minutes—but you have no power.

  • Originally posted by Pesala:

    No one is forcing you to use Opera 18, but it is you who is being awkward, not the interface. The menu works just as well wherever it is. If you hate keyboard shortcuts, then use the mouse. It takes just one click to open the menu.

    You do know that Opera has abandoned Presto and that compatibility is becoming even more of a problem with pre-15 releases right? That in itself forces users to have to upgrade. And the menu is awkward and inconvenient. If I am familiar with the classic interface in Opera, regardless of what the default is, I shouldn't be forced to use an interface that is ugly and looks like it was ripped straight out of Chrome. Maybe that's perfectly convenient for you, but it's also ugly and inconvenient to someone else. I don't care what the default is, the ability to change it should have been present like it was in 12.

    Originally posted by Pesala:

    Now you're conflating two completely different issues. They are also mutually exclusive terms. The abundance of features in Opera 12 or earlier made for a very complex interface, which was not at all user-friendly for new users.

    If you think Opera's interface was complex then you probably weren't using it as a desktop browser, as its interface was no more complex than IE or Firefox.

    And if you can admit that ...

    Originally posted by Pesala:

    Those of us who have been using Opera for years, have grown to know and like it, plus with the GUI customisation we have been able to configure it exactly as we like it.

    You should already understand why someone would think Opera's new interface is awkward. It's a slap in the face to all of those that have been using and supporting Opera for all these years for them to take something as basic as that away and expect us to migrate over to their new browser, which has more in common with Chrome than it does of its former self.

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