Where is the menu bar?

[blackbird71]

blackbird71 last edited by

Originally posted by leushino:

And I never claimed I DID need any of those things. You are the whiners that NEED this and that in order to function, not I (i.e. Integrated mail has been mentioned). I don't need Discover, Speed Dial, Stash, Chrome extensions compatibility, keyboard shortcuts, privacy mode, zoom etc etc etc. The truth is, I get along fine without most of them and I'm certainly not limping along. There is a difference between need and want. Learn it and stop being so disingenuous, Blackbird.:whistle:

There's no disingenuous-ness to it. If a person posts that he "needs" a particular feature, implemented in a particular way, you and others have repeatedly replied that there's some other way to do the job (thus arguing his particular, stated 'need' is merely a 'want'). But that neither automatically responds to nor negates his stated "need". Not without seriously considering why he specifically "needs" it in the form or manner he has described. Speed dials are NOT toolbars. Toolbars are NOT data lists. Random lists are NOT organized, foldered records. All the protestations in the world will never turn a Zebra into a Quarterhorse, though they may both be made to do similar things. Alternate methods of usage may or may not be fully applicable to a particular user's situation... and his "need" may or may not thereby be reduced to a "want".

I listed a number of New Opera features/functionalities that are not of themselves intrinsic responses to "needs" involved in basic browsing, simply because they are only forms of implementation responding to genuine needs. They are merely how the developers "wanted" to instill them into the browser to meet 'needs', for their own reasons. The genuine need exists in browsers to retrieve previously-accessed websites, but the "wants" of New Opera's developers for various SpeedDial and Stash attributes led them to implement a response to the bookmarking 'need' in that manner, and to initially advertise them as full replacement for bookmarking. However, those developers 'wants' for that solution are no more compelling than a user's differing 'wants'. The problem, of course, is that all forms of implementation have limitations which will impact different users in different ways. And a user whose methodology "wants" one form of implementation may have major problems with the limits of another form of implementation... even to the degree where his "need" for the attributes of one implementation is not being met by another implementation.

Where we do perhaps agree is that New Opera is what it is. It's a free browser, and users have to either accept it as it exists or not. I believe where we strongly disagree is whether or not users have a reason to complain about the feature set of the offered browser, whether they have a right to voice such complaints here, and whether it will do any good in terms of future design changes to New Opera. I believe there are grounds for complaint (provided those complaints are respectfully made - which has unfortunately not been done in all too many posts), that there are few if any other vehicles for complaint besides these forums, and that they will do (and have already done) some good in influencing design. If Opera ASA is not listening to feedback, then we're both in trouble. Sadly, the waters have been made murky by Opera's initial aloofness to user complaints and by the nasty, disrespectful tone of many on both sides of the dialogue. A complaint is not a whine - though it can become that. Candor is not disrespect - though it can become that via negativity. To the extent that I may have somehow participated in any excessiveness, I do apologize.

[A Former User]

A Former User last edited by

Originally posted by videobruce:

All we ask is the option to have it. Why is that such a problem?

Asking for options is not a problem at all. Refusing to accept that it's not available is the problem. There's a desktop wish-list for feature requests.

Software is not like a restaurant where you can order whatever is on the menu, but even then you may be told that it's not available. If that happens, do you just continue ranting that that is what you need and that nothing else will do, or do you order something else, or do you just go to another restaurant?

[Deleted User]

Deleted User last edited by

Originally posted by blackbird71:

To the extent that I may have somehow participated in any excessiveness, I do apologize.

No need to apologize. I was wrong to pursue that tack so vigorously and with some trigger words. What can I say other than, I'm sorry.

[blackbird71]

blackbird71 last edited by

Originally posted by leushino:

Originally posted by blackbird71:

To the extent that I may have somehow participated in any excessiveness, I do apologize.

No need to apologize. I was wrong to pursue that tack so vigorously and with some trigger words. What can I say other than, I'm sorry.

No sorrow is needed. My fondest wish is that all the hostile rhetoric by so many posters in threads such as these would somehow be toned down. It's all too easy to get stirred up myself by all the unfriendly postings out there lately, and let that creep into my own posting. Sometimes, I find it's good to just step outdoors and take a fresh breath - though at 8 degrees F here, that would be a riveting experience right now.

[Deleted User]

Deleted User last edited by

Originally posted by blackbird71:

Originally posted by leushino:

Originally posted by blackbird71:

To the extent that I may have somehow participated in any excessiveness, I do apologize.

No need to apologize. I was wrong to pursue that tack so vigorously and with some trigger words. What can I say other than, I'm sorry.

No sorrow is needed. My fondest wish is that all the hostile rhetoric by so many posters in threads such as these would somehow be toned down. It's all too easy to get stirred up myself by all the unfriendly postings out there lately, and let that creep into my own posting. Sometimes, I find it's good to just step outdoors and take a fresh breath - though at 8 degrees F here, that would be a riveting experience right now.

I'm not sure I would describe my feeling as one of sorrow but definitely a dash of remorse could be tossed into the mixture. A co-worker of my wife was seriously injured in a traffic accident last night. Just yesterday I sat in the lounge waiting for my wife to finish for the day and that co-worker was there at her desk... cheerful and unaware that in a few hours she would be lying in a hospital bed. Only six months ago her husband was killed a few miles from our town. I mention this to remind myself to get a grip on my perspective of "these things" and to try and prioritize what is and what is not important.

We're on the coast so our temps generally don't get down as low as yours (we're low 50's right now) but I agree with you that stepping outside from time to time and smelling the fresh air would probably be a good thing. Our son and wife just left for Kauai this morning and I'm fighting the urge to go outside and scream: "Unfair!"

I completely agree regarding the tone of the various discussions and unfortunately I have my own portion of the blame to bear. I'm not sure if "any" of this emotion has impacted Opera's development team but I guess only time will tell.

[raven-kg]

raven-kg last edited by

Originally posted by Pesala:

Yes. What you want may be a picture of a naked mermaid, but what you need in a browser is the ability to navigate and select functions without too much difficulty. For that, you do not need a menu bar at the top. You way want one, but want and need are two different things. You could easily use shortcuts such as Alt P to access the settings, etc. After a month of not being able to use the top menu, if you had no other choice of browser, you would soon learn to do what you need to do without it.

Seriously? I thought that I needed a good browser that meets all my criteria of convenience.

And why should I know about all the keyboard shortcuts, why? Why do you force me to use the awkward interface? I need comfort does, not what sort of chromium (if I liked the chrome - I would have used the chrome). I like the old opera for user-friendly interface and an abundance of features. Now it turns out that instead of a good browser, we have a useless piece of crap, correct that in accordance with the requests of users probably nobody is going.

[Deleted User]

Deleted User last edited by

And " this", Blackbird, is part of what we were discussing.

[A Former User]

A Former User last edited by

Originally posted by raven-kg:

Why do you force me to use the awkward interface?

No one is forcing you to use Opera 18, but it is you who is being awkward, not the interface. The menu works just as well wherever it is. If you hate keyboard shortcuts, then use the mouse. It takes just one click to open the menu.

Originally posted by raven-kg:

I like the old opera for user-friendly interface and an abundance of features.

Now you're conflating two completely different issues. They are also mutually exclusive terms. The abundance of features in Opera 12 or earlier made for a very complex interface, which was not at all user-friendly for new users. Those of us who have been using Opera for years, have grown to know and like it, plus with the GUI customisation we have been able to configure it exactly as we like it.

For example, I Fixed the Button Menu to show the top menu bar items in exactly the same order, but of course they are vertical rather than horizontal. I also stripped out things I do not need, and added extra things that I do.

Configurability may return later, but its absence does not make the user-interface unfriendly. It is just that you are not accustomed to it yet. It is only my opinion, no one is forcing you to use Opera 18, but I think you will have to adjust to it, as it seems unlikely to return any time soon.

[frenzie]

frenzie last edited by

Originally posted by Pesala:

The menu works just as well wherever it is.

The top-left icon is for window controls, the same that can also be accessed through Alt+Space or by right-clicking on the titlebar. Saying the menu's working fine while it's disrupting other functionality is disingenuous. I do agree with one thing though: a lack of visible access keys is a lack of visible access keys no matter where the menu is.

Originally posted by Pesala:

Now you're conflating two completely different issues. They are also mutually exclusive terms. The abundance of features in Opera 12 or earlier made for a very complex interface, which was not at all user-friendly for new users.

You're conflating user-friendliness and something like familiarity (with IE or Chrome). That's one potential aspect, but if emphasized at the cost of efficiency and satisfaction, it's not very user-friendly at all. QuHNo posted a very good article about that yesterday: http://asktog.com/atc/the-third-user/

Originally posted by Bruce Tognazzini:

Before the invention of the personal computer, I spent fifteen years selling consumer electronics and teaching sales techniques. (I was both one of Apple’s first employees and first dealers.) I found the best way to motivate sales was to demonstrate ease-of-learning and ease-of-use while simultaneously talking about power. Apple used to do that, with its ads for “munitions-grade” computers. Now, it’s all toy-piano music and nursery-school software.

You have ease-of-learning and ease-of-use simply because just about all features (except the Konami code) can be discovered within about five minutes—but you have no power.

[tradeofjane]

tradeofjane last edited by

Originally posted by Pesala:

No one is forcing you to use Opera 18, but it is you who is being awkward, not the interface. The menu works just as well wherever it is. If you hate keyboard shortcuts, then use the mouse. It takes just one click to open the menu.

You do know that Opera has abandoned Presto and that compatibility is becoming even more of a problem with pre-15 releases right? That in itself forces users to have to upgrade. And the menu is awkward and inconvenient. If I am familiar with the classic interface in Opera, regardless of what the default is, I shouldn't be forced to use an interface that is ugly and looks like it was ripped straight out of Chrome. Maybe that's perfectly convenient for you, but it's also ugly and inconvenient to someone else. I don't care what the default is, the ability to change it should have been present like it was in 12.

Originally posted by Pesala:

Now you're conflating two completely different issues. They are also mutually exclusive terms. The abundance of features in Opera 12 or earlier made for a very complex interface, which was not at all user-friendly for new users.

If you think Opera's interface was complex then you probably weren't using it as a desktop browser, as its interface was no more complex than IE or Firefox.

And if you can admit that ...

Originally posted by Pesala:

Those of us who have been using Opera for years, have grown to know and like it, plus with the GUI customisation we have been able to configure it exactly as we like it.

You should already understand why someone would think Opera's new interface is awkward. It's a slap in the face to all of those that have been using and supporting Opera for all these years for them to take something as basic as that away and expect us to migrate over to their new browser, which has more in common with Chrome than it does of its former self.

[slartibartfartz]

slartibartfartz last edited by

well i was unpleasantly surprised - as a regular user of Opera thru the years thought i would have a crack at Opera next - hear good things about it - then cant find the menu bar hahaha - a search brought me here - along with quite a few others it is quite clear the Opera has decided that it knows best for its users and has removed what I considered an essential component - I downloaded it, when straight to extensions for adblockers etc then when to set the menu bar found it is gone. As a user happy if it is removed from the set view - but not happy that it now seems i have to change my behaviour to suit your browser. Surely this is limiting the user base?

[Deleted User]

Deleted User last edited by

Originally posted by slartibartfartz:

Surely this is limiting the user base?

Time will tell but I actually asked a couple of 20-something year olds the other day who are regular users of Chrome who said they had no use for a menu bar and didn't care about it at all. So I'm guessing we'll not see it come back.

[frenzie]

frenzie last edited by

I usually have no need for the menubar per se either. I toggle it in Opera with Ctrl + F8, but for the most part I simply know that Alt+C opens my CSS menu and Alt+U opens my Unicode menu. They open in the locations where they would if the menubar were enabled. However, that's just because I'm intimately familiar with it. In LibreOffice I do generally need the menubar to be visible, and think it's (slightly) more efficient than the ribbon in MS Office.

In Opera/Blink none of this works because it's all under Alt+F. So it's either more clicks and more mouse movement or more keypresses. Hardly good for preventing RSI.

[j7nj7n]

j7nj7n last edited by

Not that the 20-something year olds had an actual choice to use a menu or not. The simplified UI has become "familiar" to them, just like the menu bar was to us, because it was forced upon them. They don't adjust the settings, which organically belong on a menu (all boolean options, and those that have 3 choices) because they are now hidden on an inconvienient, bulky page. Therefore one can conclude that the settings aren't needed. For example, switching images on and off. Who's gonna access Settings to use the option to fix a few problematic pages?

[frenzie]

frenzie last edited by

Originally posted by j7nj7n:

Not that the 20-something year olds had an actual choice to use a menu or not. The simplified UI has become "familiar" to them, just like the menu bar was to us, because it was forced upon them.

I think you're confusing teens and 20-somethings. :lol: We did in fact have our first computer experiences in the '90s. (Although admittedly the 20-something range is wide enough that someone could be a 20-something and be born after my first conscious encounter with MS-DOS in the early '90s.) I'll have you know that such programs as Microsoft Works 2.0 came with a menubar and MDI.

PS Regardless of my first computer experience, older computers with MS-DOS and Windows 3.x were the only computers that were fully ours to play with in the mid '90s. By the late '90s that might've moved up to Windows 9x but there's still nothing fundamentally different there—except I also tried Linux and BeOS around then for the first time.

[j7nj7n]

j7nj7n last edited by

You're an exceptional computer user / operator. :king:

Chrome is evil. I met one 'old' man, who was also exceptional (as I perceived it) in that he was receptive to culture of next two generations after him, but still I was surprised that he wanted to have Chrome installed on his system. I was like wtf? That was a couple years ago.

I guess I have became disillusioned with change, because I felt somewhat cheated when current values (not in computing) shifted quicker than I could acquire them. I get whatever they had, and expect Them to respect me for that, and that didn't happen. Because They were in charge and could say that something else was the standard now...

The menu bar of DOS Navigator showing a group of 5 options, immediately recognizable to a user familiar with Windows (in this shape since late 1990s). The UI is kinda hybrid between NC and Windows.

[frenzie]

frenzie last edited by

Originally posted by j7nj7n:

You're an exceptional computer user / operator.

In the early 2000s I had some friends who were compiling the latest Linux kernels in their spare time while I was reading books. I'm merely a relatively advanced user, and I've never compiled a Linux kernel.

Originally posted by j7nj7n:

The menu bar of DOS Navigator showing a group of 5 options, immediately recognizable to a user familiar with Windows (in this shape since late 1990s). The UI is kinda hybrid between NC and Windows.

I'm not familiar with that program, but I can show you Microsoft Works 2.0.

[Deleted User]

Deleted User last edited by

I know I now use the new Opera on my laptop where I browse and my computer use is amusement only.

On my work computer, I still use Opera 12 and probably will for a long, long time as it's just instinctive to me and, to me, much easier.

After all, I use the menu bar in MS Word (I still use MS Word 2003) all the time so naturally expect to use it in my browser, too.

I don't understand the logic of completely getting rid of the menu bar rather than giving an option to use it or not. Doubt I ever will.

[raven-kg]

raven-kg last edited by

It seems to me, a complete rejection of the main menu is a very big mistake. Just because the menu is part of the standard interface familiar to all PC users (it was already mentioned above). You say that we do not need a menu. And I think it's just because the developers are too lazy to attach the checkbox as it was in Opera 12. Aiming to enter the market of devices designed for finger-pointing, the developers at the same time put an end to PC users.

[A Former User]

A Former User last edited by

Originally posted by raven-kg:

And I think it's just because the developers are too lazy to attach the checkbox as it was in Opera 12.

Too busy trying to fix important things. The menu bar is absent in all modern browsers, so I don't think most users expect to find it any longer:

Firefox: Menu bar off by default, shown with Alt key
Opera Presto: Menu bar off by default, enable from Button menu, shown with Alt key
IE11: Menu bar off by default, show with Alt key
Chrome: No menu bar; no Alt key shortcut either, click a button to show the menu
Opera Blink: No menu bar; show with the Alt key or click a button.

Originally posted by raven-kg:

Aiming to enter the market of devices designed for finger-pointing, the developers at the same time put an end to PC users.

Doesn't your PC have an Alt key or a mouse?