Where is the menu bar?

[blackbird71]

blackbird71 last edited by

Originally posted by leushino:

... you don't NEED the menu on to in order to use the browser. You may PREFER the menu to be placed there but that is different from NEEDING it there. People don't NEED an interface with which they are comfortable. They may DESIRE it, but they do not NEED it (PS: are you "getting it" yet?). ...

For that matter, you don't NEED SpeedDial, Stash, Discover, or Chrome-extension compatibility. You don't even NEED a privacy mode, scroll bars, shortcuts, zoom, auto-updating, themes, full-screen, or countless other things in a browser... just limp along without any of it and you can still "browse", plus your browser might be incredibly fast in all those artificial speed tests so often cited. Moreover, it would be a snap for the devs to code it. I've even got a browser on my system much like that... Off-By-One... fastest browser on earth on a modern quad-core! But almost useless if you don't want to jump through a million hoops at a modern graphics/script-intense website.

The point is that defining what constitutes a "NEED" in terms of browser functions/capabilities/features will always end up being dominated by the personal preferences of each person defining the term. Opera has its view of "need", as do you, I and countless other posters. At the end of the day, what matters most is what Opera's devs think, and whether or not they can be (or will be) persuaded to acknowledge as well other people's pleas about "needs," enough to eventually embody them into Opera's functionality as they did for many years previously. On that will turn Opera's future.

[frenzie]

frenzie last edited by

Originally posted by blackbird71:

For that matter, you don't NEED SpeedDial, Stash, Discover, or Chrome-extension compatibility. You don't even NEED a privacy mode, scroll bars, shortcuts, zoom, auto-updating, themes, full-screen, or countless other things in a browser... just limp along without any of it and you can still "browse", plus your browser might be incredibly fast in all those artificial speed tests so often cited. Moreover, it would be a snap for the devs to code it. I've even got a browser on my system much like that... Off-By-One... fastest browser on earth on a modern quad-core! But almost useless if you don't want to jump through a million hoops at a modern graphics/script-intense website.

Hear, hear!

(Although I wouldn't call e.g. Elinks or Lynx useless; quite the opposite.)

[tradeofjane]

tradeofjane last edited by

Originally posted by leushino:

But you don't NEED the menu on to in order to use the browser. You may PREFER the menu to be placed there but that is different from NEEDING it there. People don't NEED an interface with which they are comfortable. They may DESIRE it, but they do not NEED it (PS: are you "getting it" yet?). I'm a long time Opera user (probably longer than you) and I'm not pissed off. Software doesn't piss me off...ignorant people can come close to doing that but not something inanimate like software. If it doesn't suit me, I find a workaround OR I find something else to take its place. Now since you don't like the new GUI of Opera, use the older Presto suite (i.e. v.12.16). It's really very simple but you're making it hard. And if the older version no longer meets your needs then go elsewhere. BUT... you might try "cooling your jets" just a wee bit. It's not good for your health and we certainly don't appreciate it.

You don't get to define what someone else needs in order to use a browser. I need my interface to look and feel like it wasn't ripped straight out of Chrome. If you want a copy of Chrome then carry your ass over to Google. I prefer my browser the way it was, which is why I've been using Opera for 10+ years. If Opera wanted to make this migration easier they wouldn't be forcing Chrome's interface on us. So don't be surprised if long-time users are pissed.

[rainspa]

rainspa last edited by

I need the things Opera has provided and I've adapted my browser use to over the years. Hardly surprising there's so many disgruntled posts when a something so totally different comes along.

[A Former User]

A Former User last edited by

And who the hell are you to decide what someone else needs? If someone needs the menu on top in order to use the browser, because that is what they are use to, then that is something they need.

Agree 100%
One would think this guy is another Cheney or Rumsfeld from the Republican gestapo.

He is really pissing many of us off with statements like that.

[sotabaka]

sotabaka last edited by

Supose that M$ was an automobile manufactor.

They decided to get rid of the steering wwheel and use the small rearview mirror control button instead... OP folowed them in their demential idea.

You get tree(phun intended) choices .. start to drive using a tiny buttopn/stick ... keep the old car ... or buy a different brand.

FYIO I never even gave chrome a chance because IT DIDN'T HAD a menu bar ... If I upgrade from OP12 to a new version I might as well forget opera as a "default browser" and do a complete change ... wich might as well be to a new one from a different brand.

For the time being I'll keep the "old" 12x installed. But the future will tell for how long.

**Pesala
Reclining Buddha
I do not have a single program without menu bar.
You are using Windows I presume. Where is the menu bar for Windows? Oh! It doesn't have one, just a Start button that shows a menu, like Opera since about version 9 or 10.

I really feel sorry for those who simply refuse to adapt to the way things are. Change is an inevitable part of progress, and nothing stays the same for ever. I can remember when you had to dial a phone number by turning a wheel with holes in it.

Maybe the Linux version will have a menu bar, but I doubt if it will return to the Windows version. If it never returns, what are you guys going to do? At least if we can customise the menus, we can Fix the Button menu to be just like the old top menu, then there's very little to relearn.**

Windows8 does not ...

[sotabaka]

sotabaka last edited by

Originally posted by Pesala:

Originally posted by videobruce:

I can't believe you said that. What wasted space, I sure as hell don't see any.

With the menu bar enabled, the Windows title bar is also displayed. Your screen shot shows that you're wasting 45 vertical pixels out of 955, so about 4.71% of available screen space. The button menu uses no space at all when not in use, which is any time that you're reading, writing, or looking at pictures/video. The top menu and title bar are always present, whether they are being used or not. Other browsers (Firefox/IE11) at least hide it when it's not in use.

Who cares about space on the screen when now I you want me to spend 1/2 my time looking at the sides to find what previously just took me 1 click - hovering -click ????

[Deleted User]

Deleted User last edited by

And I never claimed I DID need any of those things. You are the whiners that NEED this and that in order to function, not I (i.e. Integrated mail has been mentioned). I don't need Discover, Speed Dial, Stash, Chrome extensions compatibility, keyboard shortcuts, privacy mode, zoom etc etc etc. The truth is, I get along fine without most of them and I'm certainly not limping along. There is a difference between need and want. Learn it and stop being so disingenuous, Blackbird.:whistle:

[j7nj7n]

j7nj7n last edited by

Originally posted by sotabaka:

Change is an inevitable part of progress, and nothing stays the same for ever. I can remember when you had to dial a phone number by turning a wheel with holes in it.

Until a year ago, when I still had a POTS telephone, the switchbox still understood pulse dialing, and it was still possible to tap a phone number substituting for a broken rotary dial. Or you could synthesize the dialing tones with any computer. :lol:

I guess such sending of numbers might be handy when a long code must be typed in a GSM phone. But I don't know how they send numbers.

I wonder if some telecoms still have modem pools running. Those a probably very few.

[A Former User]

A Former User last edited by

Originally posted by sotabaka:

They decided to get rid of the steering wheel and use the small rearview mirror control button instead

It's a very weak analogy, but it would be feasible to remove a car's steering wheel and replace it with a joystick or some other device. No car manufacturer has yet gone beyond the concept stage as far as I know.

Please learn to use the quote link. Select some text in a user's post, and click the Quick Quote link below it. Learning new skills is easier for young people than for those of us who are getting old. At 37 you're not too old to adapt to new technology. Currently, I don't have a clue how to use a mobile phone or iPad, but if that was all I had I would soon learn to use it to send emails etc.

Originally posted by Pesala:

I really feel sorry for those who simply refuse to adapt to the way things are. Change is an inevitable part of progress, and nothing stays the same for ever. I can remember when you had to dial a phone number by turning a wheel with holes in it.

The fact is, Opera has had no top menu bar by default for many years now. I have adapted very easily to using the button menu, not because I had to, but because it works just as well as the top menu, whether using the keyboard or mouse.

Originally posted by sotabaka:

Who cares about space on the screen?

I think most users do, even more so now that mobile devices have smaller screens. IE has had autohide of menus and toolbars for years so that the top menu bar is never visible until it's needed.

Originally posted by videobruce:

One would think this guy is another Cheney or Rumsfeld from the Republican gestapo.

Lose your temper and lose the argument. Some people are so attached to their views and opinions that they cannot remain civil in any discussion. I see that Godwin's Law is really true.

[A Former User]

A Former User last edited by

All we ask is the option to have it. Why is that such a problem?

[j7nj7n]

j7nj7n last edited by

There are currenty too few commands in the menu under the Opera Button to fill a menu bar with. They would first have to add functionality back in, show bookmarks as a menu (leaving the bar as an option to organize them), and perhaps move some settings from the "wasteful" Settings Page on a quickly accessible menu (checkboxes for show images, to enable do not track, etc). But then you'd miss the lovely background picture of people jumping from a cliff.

[Deleted User]

Deleted User last edited by

No matter how many times everyone says it, some are just going to argue that this is progress and get used to it. Fine. A ton of users will move to other browsers who still have more options than Opera now has.

The main reason I never ever ever use Chrome is that it has no menu bar. I use it constantly. I don't always have a keyboard within easy reach so a mouse click works great to navigate and read sites. Without a menu bar, unless I want to learn these mouse gesture things (which I've never figured out because I use a mouse with a trackball and I just don't care to learn them) then I'm stuck needing to move my keyboard closer to me or wherever.

We're annoyed with the way Opera has decided to mimic Chrome. Who wouldn't be? The amount of users using Opera will tell the powers that be how much we are annoyed and, if they care, they'll fix it. If not, they'll just keep doing whatever they want to do and we're stuck with it.

I know I'm not in the least bit of a hurry to try Windows 8 and doubt I ever will be. To me, that's a phone user interface, not a desktop one. It's ridiculous and means I have to take 20 some years of learning and relearn something -- most people are very resistant to doing this unless they are paid to do so (you have to do what you have to do at work, not at home).

So time will tell how this pans out. I'm very disappointed. As many have said, Chrome already exists. Who needs another Chrome???

[A Former User]

A Former User last edited by

Originally posted by bjdobson:

Without a menu bar, unless I want to learn these mouse gesture things (which I've never figured out because I use a mouse with a trackball and I just don't care to learn them) then I'm stuck needing to move my keyboard closer to me or wherever.

You can still use the Button menu with a trackball.

[frenzie]

frenzie last edited by

Originally posted by j7nj7n:

perhaps move some settings from the "wasteful" Settings Page on a quickly accessible menu (checkboxes for show images, to enable do not track, etc).

Not to mention reimplement proxy servers in a sensible manner. Although I generally advocate listening to the OS,* proxy servers are just too primitive and awkward to use in Windows itself.

* For example, why must the Chrome updater run a freaking service at all times instead of simply hooking into the Windows scheduler?

[j7nj7n]

j7nj7n last edited by

I agree about proxy servers. As I see them, they are specific to browsing (to remove part of content, or to use another address to bypass bans) and rarely needed for other applications that communicate over the internet, because they are more selective and don't filtering. To make all traffic of a computer go through another server, a web proxy is not enough anyway, and some form of VPN tunnel is needed.

But proxy servers need a dialog. Many other options can be put directly on a menu like the quick preferences menu in Opera was. Irrespective on whether this menu gets a hotkey, you would find it on the bar in a particular place (I guess to the center-right of the screen), and quickly access it without hiding the page you're on, or waiting. The "new way" of opening dialogs in full screen doesn't make sense.

[al-khwarizmi]

al-khwarizmi last edited by

I don't need the menu bar to browse web sites. However, I *do* need the menu bar to browse web sites *comfortably*. And for me, the function of a browser is to browse comfortably, so the menu bar is as needed as the back button or the scroll bar.

No one is asking to bring the menu bar back by default. Just as an option. I don't know why it is so hard for some users to respect what other people need in their browser.

[blackbird71]

blackbird71 last edited by

Originally posted by leushino:

And I never claimed I DID need any of those things. You are the whiners that NEED this and that in order to function, not I (i.e. Integrated mail has been mentioned). I don't need Discover, Speed Dial, Stash, Chrome extensions compatibility, keyboard shortcuts, privacy mode, zoom etc etc etc. The truth is, I get along fine without most of them and I'm certainly not limping along. There is a difference between need and want. Learn it and stop being so disingenuous, Blackbird.:whistle:

There's no disingenuous-ness to it. If a person posts that he "needs" a particular feature, implemented in a particular way, you and others have repeatedly replied that there's some other way to do the job (thus arguing his particular, stated 'need' is merely a 'want'). But that neither automatically responds to nor negates his stated "need". Not without seriously considering why he specifically "needs" it in the form or manner he has described. Speed dials are NOT toolbars. Toolbars are NOT data lists. Random lists are NOT organized, foldered records. All the protestations in the world will never turn a Zebra into a Quarterhorse, though they may both be made to do similar things. Alternate methods of usage may or may not be fully applicable to a particular user's situation... and his "need" may or may not thereby be reduced to a "want".

I listed a number of New Opera features/functionalities that are not of themselves intrinsic responses to "needs" involved in basic browsing, simply because they are only forms of implementation responding to genuine needs. They are merely how the developers "wanted" to instill them into the browser to meet 'needs', for their own reasons. The genuine need exists in browsers to retrieve previously-accessed websites, but the "wants" of New Opera's developers for various SpeedDial and Stash attributes led them to implement a response to the bookmarking 'need' in that manner, and to initially advertise them as full replacement for bookmarking. However, those developers 'wants' for that solution are no more compelling than a user's differing 'wants'. The problem, of course, is that all forms of implementation have limitations which will impact different users in different ways. And a user whose methodology "wants" one form of implementation may have major problems with the limits of another form of implementation... even to the degree where his "need" for the attributes of one implementation is not being met by another implementation.

Where we do perhaps agree is that New Opera is what it is. It's a free browser, and users have to either accept it as it exists or not. I believe where we strongly disagree is whether or not users have a reason to complain about the feature set of the offered browser, whether they have a right to voice such complaints here, and whether it will do any good in terms of future design changes to New Opera. I believe there are grounds for complaint (provided those complaints are respectfully made - which has unfortunately not been done in all too many posts), that there are few if any other vehicles for complaint besides these forums, and that they will do (and have already done) some good in influencing design. If Opera ASA is not listening to feedback, then we're both in trouble. Sadly, the waters have been made murky by Opera's initial aloofness to user complaints and by the nasty, disrespectful tone of many on both sides of the dialogue. A complaint is not a whine - though it can become that. Candor is not disrespect - though it can become that via negativity. To the extent that I may have somehow participated in any excessiveness, I do apologize.

[A Former User]

A Former User last edited by

Originally posted by videobruce:

All we ask is the option to have it. Why is that such a problem?

Asking for options is not a problem at all. Refusing to accept that it's not available is the problem. There's a desktop wish-list for feature requests.

Software is not like a restaurant where you can order whatever is on the menu, but even then you may be told that it's not available. If that happens, do you just continue ranting that that is what you need and that nothing else will do, or do you order something else, or do you just go to another restaurant?

[Deleted User]

Deleted User last edited by

Originally posted by blackbird71:

To the extent that I may have somehow participated in any excessiveness, I do apologize.

No need to apologize. I was wrong to pursue that tack so vigorously and with some trigger words. What can I say other than, I'm sorry.