Jon von Tetzchner, Opera's founder and former CEO spoke to The Register
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fluxrev last edited by
Originally posted by leushino:
Originally posted by blackbird71:
Not that any of this matters, really. . . . . I don't think Opera is listening to user complaints here any more...
And therein (not that it matters) lies the simple fact that has escaped (and continues to do so) the realization of most of the naysayers. It doesn't matter.
There have been a number of comments along these lines---i.e., that Opera has chosen a development path from which there will be very little deviation, and the time has long since passed where complaints here might have an impact on that path, and so there's no point in making complaints (especially of the obstreperous, irrational, or whiny kind) about it---but this assessment assumes that the belief that they are or may be a force for constructive change is the primary motivation for many/most of the complainers' posts over the last several months. I think, however, that reason and evidence suggest that the primary motivation is to satisfy the complainers' need to share their feelings, which include not only the basic displeasure that is aroused when something that someone has become attached to is taken away from them but also the desire to take the expression of that displeasure up a notch by spitting in Opera's face (and of course the faces of forum members who don't seem to respect their anger/frustration). Therefore, to point out that the complainers are wasting their time because they're not accomplishing anything (useful) is somewhat beside the point.
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blackbird71 last edited byOriginally posted by fluxrev:
... I think, however, that reason and evidence suggest that the primary motivation is to satisfy the complainers' need to share their feelings, which include not only the basic displeasure that is aroused when something that someone has become attached to is taken away from them but also the desire to take the expression of that displeasure up a notch by spitting in Opera's face (and of course the faces of forum members who don't seem to respect their anger/frustration). Therefore, to point out that the complainers are wasting their time because they're not accomplishing anything (useful) is somewhat beside the point.
But wouldn't that behavior constitute precisely what "whining", "attacking", and "b***hing" are considered to be? I don't see anywhere in the forum's rules and conduct code that the forum exists as an appropriate place to ventilate whatever primal scream a user feels he needs to emit, as a place to unleash obscenity-laced condemnations, nor to harshly attack Opera (or anyone else) in a "spit-in-the-face" manner. Perhaps some of us are just giving 'complainers' the benefit of the doubt...
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fluxrev last edited by
Originally posted by blackbird71:
But wouldn't that behavior constitute precisely what "whining", "attacking", and "b***hing" are considered to be?
Not sure exactly what you're saying here, but I'll respond by saying that I think "whining" and "attacking" could in some cases actually be intended by the author and/or construed by a reader as an effort to bring about constructive change (regardless of how effective or not such efforts may in fact be) and in other cases be intended/construed as pure venting, with no practical purpose. The majority, I believe, fall into the latter category.
Originally posted by blackbird71:
I don't see anywhere in the forum's rules and conduct code that the forum exists as an appropriate place to ventilate whatever primal scream a user feels he needs to emit, as a place to unleash obscenity-laced condemnations, nor to harshly attack Opera (or anyone else) in a "spit-in-the-face" manner.
I agree, though the extent to which the rules are enforced may matter as much or more than the rules themselves.
Originally posted by blackbird71:
Perhaps some of us are just giving 'complainers' the benefit of the doubt...
Yes, and some of them deserve it. Many clearly don't. But, hey, if Opera ASA doesn't care that their desktop forum has become a locus of whines and fulminations serving no practical purpose---and they obviously don't (at least, not in a serious way)---then I'm certainly not going to lose any sleep over it.
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Deleted User last edited by
And some of them deserve it? I see... according to ??? oh... according to you. So if I have this correct, you are the measure of all things here, determining who should have his/her face spit upon and who should warrant a pass? That makes perfect sense. Well, as long as you're not losing any sleep over it, it's all good.
BTW, feel free to spit away. It will all be gone in a matter of 12 days and as has been mentioned -it doesn't matter anyway. :whistle:
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fluxrev last edited by
Originally posted by leushino:
And some of them deserve it? I see... according to ??? oh... according to you. So if I have this correct, you are the measure of all things here, determining who should have his/her face spit upon and who should warrant a pass? Yeah. That makes perfect sense. Well, as long as you're not losing any sleep over it, it's all good.
And feel free to spit away. It will all be gone in a matter of 12 days and as has been mentioned: it doesn't matter anyway.
leushino, you're way off base here. Totally misunderstood my point. Read the last part of my post again, including blackbird71's statement that I quoted and was responding to. I'm actually less generous in my interpretation of inflammatory posts than your comrade-in-arms (whom I also respect, to be clear) blackbird71 is. As for accusing me of claiming to be "the measure of all things" here, well, let's just say I think you're walking on thin ice there.
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Deleted User last edited by
The forums are in existence to HELP users with the browser. What part of that simple intention do you fail to understand. This is not a place to bitch, whine, complain, threaten, bully, and spit in another's face. The good thing is - it's all coming to an end (thank you, thank you). Hopefully whatever is left according to the ptb will be heavily moderated and complaints, whines, belly-aching, threats to abandon etc etc will be once and for all dealt with.
You can think whatever you like, fluxrev. Your attempts to put a more positive spin on your previous outrageous statements is laughable but I commend you for creativity. The truth is, I've wasted time by responding to you. -
stevenjcee last edited byOriginally posted by leushino:
The forums are in existence to HELP users with the browser. What part of that simple intention do you fail to understand. This is not a place to bitch, whine, complain, threaten, bully, and spit in another's face.
Some of you guys keep insisting that this is only to help users with technical problems, which is what some of you have taken on as your mission, (as well as castigating all those you deem worthy of your scorn), yet you are wrong & misguided, that is unless you aren't referring to Opera's own mission statement as to the purpose of this forum:
"Welcome to the Opera forums - a place for you to get in touch with other Opera users for discussions, troubleshooting, and sharing ideas. Opera employees are active in the forums and will sometimes respond to questions and comments."
So, discussing & sharing ideas is ALSO what this forum is about, and I didn't see anywhere, a provision for vigilantes to determine who's posts are worthy of existence in this forum.
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fluxrev last edited by
Originally posted by leushino:
You can think whatever you like, fluxrev. Your attempts to put a more positive spin on your previous outrageous statements is laughable but I commend you for creativity.
Wow. After your unfathomable misinterpretation of my very clear point, I directed you right to the plain, clear truth of what had been said---and you still completely failed to see it!
EDITED TO SAY: I take it back: You're not smarter than this.
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Deleted User last edited by
Originally posted by leushino:
The truth is, I've wasted time by responding to you.
Given the 2312 comments you have written so far (many as smug and polemical as the ones in this thread), you must have a quite a lot of time on your hands.
Originally posted by leushino:
It will all be gone in a matter of 12 days and as has been mentioned -it doesn't matter anyway.
And in your case, this one-way trip into oblivion seems certainly cause for relieve.
However, I have the terrible feeling that you are already haunting Jon von Tetzchner vivaldi.net:
one 'JamesD' posts there, whose uses the same self-portrait icon as you.Be warned, all who transfer there.
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Deleted User last edited by
Gotta love the IGNORE function. Appears the peanut gallery are enjoying their final days in the sun. I have this mental image of rabid dogs, frothing at the... (sigh). Sleep tight, Gentlemen. :whistle:
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fluxrev last edited by
Originally posted by leushino:
Gotta love the IGNORE function.
You can fool yourself with that one, leushino, but you're not fooling anyone else here. Defending Opera Blink every five minutes is your raison d'etre.
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biggerabalone last edited by
rafaelluik said:
"The switch to using Chromium was an engineering-led decision, not a management decision to cut costs".
yet then he said:
"I see it differently. Instead of investing endlessly in Presto ... the management chose to do heavy investment in the switch to Chromium"
interesting
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biggerabalone last edited by
Originally posted by leushino:
Gotta love the IGNORE function. Appears the peanut gallery are enjoying their final days in the sun. I have this mental image of rabid dogs, frothing at the... (sigh). Sleep tight, Gentlemen. :whistle:
by peanut gallery, i suppose you mean opera's loyal core users? you, as i recall in another thread, have just went over to internet explorer (sigh).
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A Former User last edited by
Originally posted by biggerabalone:
rafaelluik said:
"The switch to using Chromium was an engineering-led decision, not a management decision to cut costs".
yet then he said:
"I see it differently. Instead of investing endlessly in Presto ... the management chose to do heavy investment in the switch to Chromium"
interesting
So you can't imagine a situation where the engineers come up with an idea, decide to go with it and then the management agrees with them?
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Deleted User last edited by
Originally posted by rafaelluik:
Originally posted by biggerabalone:
rafaelluik said:
"The switch to using Chromium was an engineering-led decision, not a management decision to cut costs".
yet then he said:
"I see it differently. Instead of investing endlessly in Presto ... the management chose to do heavy investment in the switch to Chromium"
interesting
So you can't imagine a situation where the engineers come up with an idea, decide to go with it and then the management agrees with them?
For sure, I can imagine a situation where engineers came up with the idea for having a good reason to leave Opera ASA :left:
Besides, there is a management for each department.
Engineers have also their manager and you can only hope that the team tinkering on this shell has an engineer as manager :devil: -
blackbird71 last edited by
Any interpretation is possible until you actually work in the company and see how its management really operates. While "past performance will not always provide a guarantee of future results", it often gives a pretty good clue - unless there's been a sudden shakeup or buyout. In some companies, an idea from engineering can climb all the way to the top, getting approval/sponsorship from management all the way. In other companies, 'ideas' come from marketing and are shoved down to engineering to "find a way", then a like-minded engineering manager pushes the idea back up the chain with the background support/sponsorship of marketing's management. I don't pretend to know which way Opera ASA operates on something of this magnitude... and I'll keep my peace on my guess.
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biggerabalone last edited by
rafaelluik
"So you can't imagine a situation where the engineers come up with an idea, decide to go with it and then the management agrees with them?"you posted a link: http://thenextweb.com/insider/2013/02/18/opera-sheds-almost-100-employees-after-switching-to-webkit/#!wvz2l
in it it says:
"the 90-something employees that left Opera weren’t all developers that were unilaterally canned. Rather, some of the jobs at the Norwegian browser software company had simply become obsolete over the course of 2012 because of the switch from its proprietary rendering engine Presto to the open-source WebKit project".
"In fact, of the 90 people who left Opera, only about half were developers".
so, 45 developers/engineers became obsolete because they were specialists in the presto engine? surely these were not the ones that chose the new direction and then lost their jobs? martyred for webkit, that would be true belief.
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Deleted User last edited by
Originally posted by biggerabalone:
so, 45 developers/engineers became obsolete because they were specialists in the presto engine?
Those who didn't left were probably specialists in the blink engine
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blackbird71 last edited by
Originally posted by Krake:
Originally posted by biggerabalone:
so, 45 developers/engineers became obsolete because they were specialists in the presto engine?
Those who didn't left were probably specialists in the blink engine
Palace coup?
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A Former User last edited by
Originally posted by biggerabalone:
rafaelluik
"So you can't imagine a situation where the engineers come up with an idea, decide to go with it and then the management agrees with them?"you posted a link: http://thenextweb.com/insider/2013/02/18/opera-sheds-almost-100-employees-after-switching-to-webkit/#!wvz2l
in it it says:
"the 90-something employees that left Opera weren’t all developers that were unilaterally canned. Rather, some of the jobs at the Norwegian browser software company had simply become obsolete over the course of 2012 because of the switch from its proprietary rendering engine Presto to the open-source WebKit project".
"In fact, of the 90 people who left Opera, only about half were developers".
so, 45 developers/engineers became obsolete because they were specialists in the presto engine? surely these were not the ones that chose the new direction and then lost their jobs? martyred for webkit, that would be true belief.
1. How much is "about half"?
2. How much was the total?
3. Not everyone was fired, I remember reading some people willfully left. And remember the rest of Haavard's comment, there were layoffs under Jon too!
4. It's stated the decision was led by engineers, but never that it was via democracy.I don't know why you just can't accept this simple truth... The devs must be the most happy to drop the complex Opera 12 code and all the superfluous features they had to maintain. They weren't able to implement OOPP and hardware acceleration without breaking stuff and keeping it in an endless beta or rolling back, there wasn't a bright future for Opera 12 engines and maintaining its code either, not to mention the compatibility issues. Borrowing from Chromium is much easier.
