Full url in Opera 17. Any chances?

funksoulbro

funksoulbro

Opera is going down the route of forcing people to use extensions to add functionality that was built into Opera 12 and below too, so it really doesn't matter that you have to do that in Chrome and Firefox. Doing it in Firefox means that you can have an up to date browser that retains most of the functionality from Opera 12.16, while using Opera 17/18 means you can't get anywhere near that even with extensions. I don't see why you can't understand why people are deserting Opera after many years of using it. It used to be the browser that provided a ton of customisability and functionality without having to use add-ons. Now it's dumbed down beyond belief and even seeing a full URL in the address bar is considered "too technical" for users to understand, lol.

A Former User

Originally posted by funksoulbro:

Opera is going down the route of forcing people to use extensions to add functionality that was built into Opera 12 and below too, so it really doesn't matter that you have to do that in Chrome and Firefox.

It matters because for my needs I'd probably have to add more extensions with the functionality I want (if there are any) to Chrome/Firefox than to Opera.

Originally posted by funksoulbro:

Doing it in Firefox means that you can have an up to date browser that retains most of the functionality from Opera 12.16, while using Opera 17/18 means you can't get anywhere near that even with extensions.

Well I guess it falls under personal needs aways. The way I see it: now Opera still has unique features built in and you have to use some extensions (*depending on your needs*) but you prefer to switch to another browser just so you can do the same thing to it (filling its holes with extensions)? This is merely accepting different trade-offs.

For example, for the OP needs...
I don't use side tabs (vertical tabs) but it was already commented that they're working on bring this option back to the new version. And I don't know how the extension works but it exists for Chrome.
Bookmarks: same story.

Originally posted by funksoulbro:

Now it's dumbed down beyond belief and even seeing a full URL in the address bar is considered "too technical" for users to understand, lol.

And no "technical user" was able to justify the need of seeing HTTP/HTTPS/FTP and the rest of URL parameters in the address field for everyday tasks.

funksoulbro

funksoulbro

Opera 17 and 18 are garbage. Everyone knows it apart from the handful of Opera cheerleaders that loved Opera for its customisability/features, yet somehow still love the new version even though it's a dumbed down version of Chrome. The vast, VAST majority of people see web browsers as tools, not as a team to cheer for on an Internet forum, which is why, in a couple of years only you and one or two other people will be left here shouting "where's everyone gone?", haha. Just watch.

blackbird71

blackbird71

Originally posted by funksoulbro:

... The vast, VAST majority of people see web browsers as tools, not as a team to cheer for on an Internet forum, which is why, in a couple of years only you and one or two other people will be left here shouting "where's everyone gone?", haha. Just watch.

I'm hardly a cheerleader for the new Opera, as anyone who's read my posts around here would observe... just as you describe it, I see a browser as purely a tool that serves my needs. However, be careful about attributing numbers ("vast, VAST") to the types of browser users unless you've got cold, hard, relevant, and accurate stats to back it up. Most of the browser-user folks I know are actually "civilians"... they use a browser to surf a handful of favorite sites, usually Flash-laden and/or social-networks. Regardless and in reality, I doubt strongly that either you, I, or even Opera have reliable stats - though we all probably believe we do.

Also, be careful about selling Opera short in where it goes in years to come. They've made a business of surviving as a smallish, adaptable browser company in a world of 'mega' browser promoters. Old Opera became what it was by a lot of innovation over a fairly long time span. What new Opera will really become is yet to be seen, whether by its critics or its fans.

funksoulbro

funksoulbro

I was referring to the guy above you when I was talking about Opera cheerleaders. This forum is packed full of people whining about how crap the new Opera versions are - that speaks volumes.

Opera survived because it gave users something that other browsers did not - features and customisability. Now they are another also-ran who abandoned everything they built up to be a Chrome-clone. There's no reason for me to use it as an Opera user. There's no reason for users of any other browsers to switch to it, because they gain nothing of value. Do you really think users are going to sit around for years waiting for it to evolve into something that resembles the older version? Of course not. People have been waiting for months for them to add in usable bookmarks, but all we get is an increase in the version number but nothing that we actually want or need. You can stick a fork in Opera now, cos it's done.

A Former User

@funksoulbro you don't want to discuss anything, you ignore the content of my post, you ignore how the way I used Opera 12 diverged from yours (I don't need all that customizability, the default shortcuts and interface arrangement aways served me well for example, no need for custom buttons and ini files either, I don't need to set MIME types for downloads), I can't see anything worthy in Firefox to make me switch, and installing a couple of extensions doesn't kill me as much as it doesn't kill you to install extensions in Fx. I'm being sincere and rational, I'm giving objective examples from my personal experience, but it doesn't matter!

You just want to shout how much you hate Opera Software now regardless and brag about how great market analyst you are predicting Opera's demisse lol but I won't give audience to your little drama show. Bye.

funksoulbro

funksoulbro

@scratchspace - I would love to be wrong about this. I've used Opera for 7 or 8 years. I've recommended it to friends. I've recommended it on forums. But the way I see it is, the entire backbone of what made Opera great (to me and many others) is gone. Their philosophy has switched entirely. So if you were a fan of Opera 12.16 and below because it had features and customisability options that required extensions in other browsers, or simply weren't available at all, there its no point sitting around waiting for the dev team to bring out "Opera 12.16 - The Blink Edition!" because it's never coming. Not unless they do a complete reversal of all the things they've said in recent months - which is not impossible - but again, sitting around expecting that to happen is just silly. You're better off looking for another browser now, before Opera 12.16 becomes even more insecure and incompatible with sites.

rafaelliuk would be saying "Opera 19 is great!" if they released it and it was exactly like the very first version of Netscape Navigator, so nobody should be taking that cheerleading fanboy seriously. Instead, read what the Opera devs are saying and think "well, do I want a browser like that?", cos the answer for me and many others is a resounding "no", as you can see by the many, many gripes on this very forum and Opera's plummeting usage stats on the desktop, except some people, it seems, are living in hope that Opera will evolve back into the feature-rich and customisable browser that made them use it over the competition in the first place. Those people are wasting their time IMO.

LisandreL

LisandreL

Originally posted by rafaelluik:

Chrome and Firefox would require me to install an add-on just so I can be able to use a Paste&Go keyboard shortcut for example, an add-on so I can right-click selected text and get "Search with" so I can select one from my list of search engines, it would require an extension for a decent Speed Dial and so on...

Basically I do not care if functionality is built-in or is brought by extensions. While it works well - I am ok with it.
I had extensions in Opera for Speed Dial and for search with and even for auto complete which is built-in functionality in other browsers.
Though I must say I loved Opera built-in Notes more than Evernote.

Originally posted by rafaelluik:

Also, if you lived with Opera 12 and older where it was common for sites to display messages like "our site is not compatible with your browser", reading this "outdated browser" message shouldn't be scary.

It's ok while they just show you the message. But if the message blocks all the site without an option to continue without changing «outdated browser»…
Well, now I saw rather few of such sites, but I guess their amount would increase.

Originally posted by rafaelluik:

And no "technical user" was able to justify the need of seeing HTTP/HTTPS/FTP and the rest of URL parameters in the address field for everyday tasks.

It's not a need but a desire.
Cause this cuted urls look dumb and still not informative.
In case of hiding all this unneeded technical details and show it user-friendly I like the Yandex.browser way.

A Former User

Originally posted by funksoulbro:

rafaelliuk would be saying "Opera 19 is great!" if they released it and it was exactly like the very first version of Netscape Navigator, so nobody should be taking that cheerleading fanboy seriously. Instead, read what the Opera devs are saying and think "well, do I want a browser like that?", cos the answer for me and many others is a resounding "no", as you can see by the many, many gripes on this very forum and Opera's plummeting usage stats on the desktop, except some people, it seems, are living in hope that Opera will evolve back into the feature-rich and customisable browser that made them use it over the competition in the first place. Those people are wasting their time IMO.

You're just another of the kind that doesn't even know the difference between market share and number of users and have no idea how Opera 12.x was making Opera lose users as shown in their quarterly reports.

It doesn't matter whether Opera 19 is objectively great or not, you'll ignore any points in denial anyway.

I never said Opera 15+ will become customizable/feature-packed in the same level of Opera 12, I'm saying it has already got a good base of features and we will get some useful new and old features specifically answering OP's examples (side tabs and "legacy" bookmarks which both are coming back).
My necessity was having simple notes synchronized then I used Opera Notes, no other browser offer that same functionality. Then I migrated to Google Keep, and with that the point of Panels died for me. I didn't use M2 / IRC / etc and I'm not claiming all these former features are coming back.

I never said I liked Opera for its customizability, I repeat: I couldn't care less since the default setup was enough for me (I used to only tweak the startup setting, disable the Ctrl+TAB visual-last-active-tab-cycler and disable the plug-ins that got in my system through the necessity of other programs or bank sites). There was no necessity of moving/adding/removing buttons for me as I can control the browser with the default keyboard and mouse gestures, etc...
Opera got me for other details, like the ones I gave as examples above (Speed Dial, search with for selected text, shortcuts/gestures, Off-road, etc) that would require extensions in other browsers. Another example: its non-modal alert/dialog boxes it had long before Firefox (and Chrome's still modal). Something else on Firefox: I can't use Alt+Enter to open typed URLs/searches in new tab.

Opera also got me by the way they respect truly open web standards...

The things that I miss now in Opera and for example the visual tabs tooltips I enjoyed aren't in any other browser out of the box either (or maybe Sleipnir has them? Again Sleipnir would present other trade-offs)... I just want to say that as you can see it's a matter of personal preferences instead of "Firefox is the best it's the solution to all problems".

A Former User

Originally posted by LisandreL:

It's ok while they just show you the message. But if the message blocks all the site without an option to continue without changing «outdated browser»…
Well, now I saw rather few of such sites, but I guess their amount would increase.

Well compatibility problems never ceased to pop in Opera-Presto.

Originally posted by LisandreL:

It's not a need but a desire.
Cause this cuted urls look dumb and still not informative.
In case of hiding all this unneeded technical details and show it user-friendly I like the Yandex.browser way.

Hm... I don't have an opinion about that "Yandex way" (apart from the obvious duplicity since you can already mouse over the tabs to see their full title), at first it's a bit of a shock but I guess I don't really care since focusing it would give me the actual URL. In Opera we have the badge and domain highlighting, how do you check the page security in Yandex browser?

LisandreL

LisandreL

Originally posted by rafaelluik:

apart from the obvious duplicity

But, imho, it is still more informative, than showing me, so to say, search.php, without what am I actually searching.

Originally posted by rafaelluik:

how do you check the page security in Yandex browser?

I do not really use it, so do not know match about it, but something like that: valid ssl, invalid ssl.

P.S. Feel like we got deep in off-topic there.

Deleted User

Deleted User

Originally posted by rafaelluik:

It isn't even an issue for me... I really don't see this necessity. I mean, "" is no guarantee of security and the only other use which is copy works perfectly ok (if you copy the URL in the address field it comes with the protocol in your clipboard).

It's not (only) about security. A web browser is supposed to show the full address. It's one of the very basic features that must not be compromised. How about a wrist-watch without minute or hour hand?

Deleted User

Deleted User

Originally posted by scratchspace:

Opera 17 is (as you know) capable of quickly showing the full address. Exactly why, in practical terms (as opposed to mere dogma), is it required that this be the default behavior for every webpage that a user visits?

Developers need routinely to see precisely at what local page they are. Now, I personally am not a (serious) developer, but I browse local files often enough, and I honestly cannot imagine a situation when I would not want to see the exact address, locally or globally.

It's basic: I should know where I am. So why not make it precise? Why muddle it? Edit: What next? Hide urls in links, to protect us from knowing whether we want to click or not? The trend of "progress" is assumedly, "Whatever, just click it. You can always hit the back button." Except that the next trend could be to remove the back button...

Tell me please, why should any part of the address be hidden or even lowlighted (in practical terms, as opposed to mere dogma)?

frenzie

frenzie

Originally posted by scratchspace:

Opera 17 is (as you know) capable of quickly showing the full address.

No, it's not. It's completely and utterly incabable of ever showing the full address.

Originally posted by scratchspace:

Exactly why, in practical terms (as opposed to mere dogma), is it required that this be the default behavior for every webpage that a user visits?

Why should a book have page numbers?

Originally posted by scratchspace:

How about a valid analogy? A "wrist-watch without minute or hour hand" does not perform the defining, essential function of a watch: to tell the time. A browser, on the other hand, unquestionably performs its defining, essential function regardless of whether it "show(s) the full address".

That's nonsense and you know it.

Deleted User

Deleted User

Originally posted by scratchspace:

In any event, I would ask, why should showing, as a default behavior, the full address of a local file—a file where security is not an issue—be regarded as a "must-have" feature of a browser for the typical (i.e., not a developer) user?

First think why it has been the default behaviour in the first place. Full urls have been gradually removed from our sight only recently. Why? I don't think you gave a valid answer.

My personal opposition to this "feature" is to think about its reasons. I see no valid reason. Apart from focusing, you gave no defence for why urls should be hidden or lowlighted, and in mentioning focusing, you implicitly conceded that in different cases different things need focus.

But notably, you didn't go further with this fantastic idea: What if urls in links were half-hidden (or "focused" as you say)? This way you would be safe from knowing what's behind the link and the world becomes even more wonderful for typical users. Only advanced developers need urls in links, so let's hide urls in links as per default. This has not been done yet, so let's say we are being innovative. Agree?

Originally posted by scratchspace:

The value of this focusing varies,

Indeed, the value varies, the reasons for different people also vary. Therefore, if you do this senseless thing at all, GIVE OPTIONS!!! In FF you can still set trimurls to false in about:config. When this option disappears, I will uninstall the whole thing and never look back.

In case of urls I visit, it is self-evident to me that I should know them to absolute exact precision. It's ridiculous that I even have to defend this position.

Originally posted by scratchspace:

. If you're trying to find a topic or other item in a nonfiction book, you go to either the table of contents or the index, and page numbers are essential to that process. If you're trying to find either a cited passage in a fiction book or the place where you last stopped reading (no cracks about bookmarks here, please!), again page numbers are essential. How can you possibly compare this page number function with the function of showing the full address, all in the same font, as the default behavior for every webpage?

How can you possibly think that urls are not essential to browsing the web? Please elaborate.

frenzie

frenzie

Originally posted by scratchspace:

Huh? What's the basis for this assertion? I've done this myself.

Showing the full address involves four unintuitive steps:
1. Highlight the addressbar (click or Ctrl+L)
2. Copy (right click, copy or Ctrl+C)
3. Start Notepad or switch to Notepad (Alt+Tab or click on taskbar)
4. Paste (right click, paste or Ctrl+V).

You're obviously referring to just the obnoxious first step which kind of shows the query string.

Originally posted by scratchspace:

Oh, come on . . . this analogy is as defective as the wristwatch analogy. If you're trying to find a topic or other item in a nonfiction book, you go to either the table of contents or the index, and page numbers are essential to that process. If you're trying to find either a cited passage in a fiction book or the place where you last stopped reading (no cracks about bookmarks here, please!), again page numbers are essential. How can you possibly compare this page number function with the function of showing the full address, all in the same font, as the default behavior for every webpage?

Well, here's a thought for starters: quite literally page numbers.

Your requirement that the full address should be useful in all situations is silly at best. While you're reading a work of fiction or even something of a more academic nature, most of the time the page number is just a waste of ink. All the things you described are only sometimes useful to a minority of book users. They're definitely not essential then, are they?

Originally posted by scratchspace:

No, I certainly do not know it. Please elaborate.

Your elaboration on the usefulness of page numbers shows that you should know it. I have no idea why you're in denial.

frenzie

frenzie

Originally posted by ersi:

In case of urls I visit, it is self-evident to me that I should know them to absolute exact precision. It's ridiculous that I even have to defend this position.

+1

I can see at a glance that I'm in topic 176something on page 1 rather than topic 125something on page 119. Which is not something necessarily immediately obvious if I switch to a page which is scrolled to someplace in the middle. Is the topic ID the most useful identifier of my location? Of course not, but it's a lot better than nothing, and not all query strings are made equal. Or to phrase that differently: just because the query string is useless on Google doesn't mean it's useless elsewhere.

A Former User

Originally posted by ersi:

How can you possibly think that urls are not essential to browsing the web? Please elaborate.

He didn't say that, he meant the need for seeing the full URL of every web page being visited all the time isn't essential.

Originally posted by Frenzie:

I can see at a glance that I'm in topic 176something on page 1 rather than topic 125something on page 119.

But why do you have the obsession of knowing you're in the page 119 of the topic 1257282 all the time via the URL parameters? Is that any useful?

Originally posted by ersi:

I see no valid reason. Apart from focusing, you gave no defence for why urls should be hidden or lowlighted

Increase readability of the main domain the user is connected to.

frenzie

frenzie

Originally posted by scratchspace:

I did not say that "urls are not essential to browsing the web" (whatever that might mean). Rather, I said that "showing the full address, all in the same font, as the default behavior for every webpage" is not essential.

I guess I can blame myself for not addressing this "same font" misunderstanding explicitly earlier, but I thought ersi's use of the word "lowlighting" did so sufficiently. But here it goes, explicitly: I have no problem whatsoever with highlighting the domain. But highlighting consists of italicizing, bolding, underlining, background color, bordering, bigger size, padding, etc. Highlighting by lowlighting the rest of the address is not what I'd call a typical understanding of the word "highlight".

Here's some proposals I wrote down back when Opera 11 introduced the horrible decision of hard-coded colors. You can ignore the stuff on the query string which is more of a "hey, how about some love for us advanced users?"

frenzie

frenzie

Originally posted by rafaelluik:

But why do you have the obsession of knowing you're in the page 119 of the topic 1257282 all the time via the URL parameters? Is that any useful?

Who do you have an obsession with defending an addressbar that doesn't even work with slightly different color schemes? Look, I'm just using this forum as an example because we're on it. It's more useful on e.g. the blogs on this very site. In any case, efficiency isn't terribly important on this site regardless because I basically just visit it for fun. Efficiency isn't terribly relevant, although that hardly means I want inefficiency. Because really, if you don't understand how it's useful that you're on page 6 instead of page 7 without having to bother scrolling down or focusing the addressbar then discussing this with you is fruitless.

Originally posted by rafaelluik:

Originally posted by ersi:

I see no valid reason. Apart from focusing, you gave no defence for why urls should be hidden or lowlighted

Increase readability of the main domain the user is connected to.

That's not a defense for hiding things. That's an argument for highlighting the domain. Kind of like I just did with the word highlighting.