Opera 15/16/17/18/19/20+ - The Chrome Wars

[blackbird71]

blackbird71 last edited by

Originally posted by jimf671:

... I am taking my lead from American management of American companies. Some of them regularly shock their European colleagues by explaining how dumbed down products and product instructions need to be for the American market.

It's not strictly an American management style, hence the objections.

I first saw it in practice some years ago within the products of large multi-national corporations, some of which were owned/based in Europe or Asia. It's based on a legitimate idea: if a product usage requires a certain level of technical expertise, the less expertise required to use it opens up the largest potential marketplace - because the lower the technical intelligence of humans, the greater the cumulative numbers of such folks with that or higher intelligence.

However, there is a glaring assumption in that concept: that more lower-expertise folks will adopt such a product than high-expertise folks will avoid or abandon it, and it's by no means assured that such an assumption is valid for a given product design for a given market. Right now, this is the very issue looming before Opera and their redesign.

[Deleted User]

Deleted User last edited by

Originally posted by woj-tek:

Originally posted by StevenCee:

"Version numbers don't mean anything to anyone anymore", really?

Yup!
and thus Opera boasted that they released 4 major versions this year - ROTFL

I think you're being a bit disingenuous. The link does not say what you think it says. It merely points to the fact that Opera has made many quick releases over the past year NOT that the version numbers are important or meaningful to anyone as they once were. The truth is, version numbers hardly mean anything for any of the browsers anymore. Some folks here are trumpeting Firefox and the be-all and end-all and yet they're at version 26 and their users have been yelling for over a year now to stop following the Chrome trend in quick releases BUT that is the new reality. Opera is simply following suit and I don't see it ever returning to what it once was. And it doesn't matter what browser you finally decide to hang your hat upon... they're all doing the same thing so you'd better get used to it.

[blackbird71]

blackbird71 last edited by

Actually, in these same forums and in the dev blogs over the past few years, I've seen all manner of criticism of a given Opera version number precisely because the poster disagreed that either the release merited a major rev number, or conversely, that it should have been given a more major release assignment than it received.

Reality: nowhere is it inherently written in product design and release that a product numbering system should follow any particular scheme. Major/minor rev numbers are simply a kind of custom that has grown up within software, assuming that "major" releases get a higher base number, whereas "minor" releases get a decimal or dash number off the major number. But there is no agreed-upon rule as to what constitutes "major" or "minor" - just some conventions that seem to offer some consistency, but with no guarantees. So the major/minor system is totally subjective in the end.

It is at least as reasonable to simply number/name emerging models or versions sequentially. Or even randomly. Nobody I've known has ever sought an automobile, food processor, or computer because it was numbered "Model 10.3, replacing model 10.2".

[frenzie]

frenzie last edited by

Originally posted by Krake:

@Frenzie

• 4 major Opera releases
• 11 Opera maintenance releases
• 27 Opera Next releases
• 18 Opera Developer releases

source

Oh, I glossed over that because of a bug(?) in their newsfeeds where the post gets the date it was written rather than the date it was published. I'm going to have to check my own Wordpress blog to see if it exhibits the same behavior. It was in my feeds, but showed up as December 17, 2013.

[frenzie]

frenzie last edited by

Originally posted by leushino:

Some folks here are trumpeting Firefox and the be-all and end-all and yet they're at version 26 and their users have been yelling for over a year now to stop following the Chrome trend in quick releases BUT that is the new reality.

If you're talking about me, that was hardly my intent. Firefox has gone greatly downhill since 3.6.* That being said, Firefox is still Firefox, give or take a few regressions.

* Firefox 3.6 and Opera 10.10 both came out in 2010. To me they're starting to represent the glamor of a bygone era.

[greekonsun]

greekonsun last edited by

Originally posted by leushino:

their users have been yelling for over a year now to stop following the Chrome trend in quick releases BUT that is the new reality.

and where did that reality bring them ?
I remember few months ago installing FF 18 on one machine, and it is unstable RAM eating hog (pretty much same what "new" opera is)
they are now at what ? 25 - 26 ? - and nothing has changed

rapid release cycle = no time for bug tests nor proper bug fixes, and feature creep - bloating every new version with more and more untested stuff
is that a good reality ?

[Deleted User]

Deleted User last edited by

It's 2014 now. RAM is cheap and modern computers have no problem handling today's browsers. I'm currently using a five year old Dell and I NEVER have crashes with any of the browsers (just ordered a new Lenovo but only to take advantage of the touch screen since my older Dell is still stable with all these programs).

Frenzie, I was not referring to you regarding the pushing of Firefox. I'm using Firefox myself (v.26) along with Opera 18, IE 11 and Chrome 31. I fully agree with Haavard that version numbers no longer mean much. As I mentioned earlier, many manufacturers are stopping the numbering of iPads, Antivirus programs are killing the version numbers which previously used dates and browsers are all on rapid release cycles. Do I like it? Not really... but I can't change it so why complain about it? It is what it is and no amount of whining will change it.

And as for the bloating, I don't care about it. My computer handles the resource requirements fine and my new computer will handle them even better. Those who want to hang on to old operating systems (i.e. XP) and old computers are going to find themselves in an increasingly dangerous environment. Better to update your stuff and move with the tide. And moving may mean leaving Opera for SeaMonkey or Firefox or what have you. In a round about way it reminds me of those members who still believe that Opera will reverse its decision on dismantling MyOpera. If only they can get enough signatures on a petition! If only they can convince Opera that his is a bad move! If only! We all know that this is simply not going to happen and that the only prudent thing to do is export your files to a new home while you have time. Prepare rather than wringing your hands in despair. And the same goes for this switch from Presto to Blink. They're not going to reverse their decision. It's too late and there's too much money and time invested now. So... you move 'with' them or you leave. You can move 'with' them by continuing for a time with the older version but keeping a copy of the new version on your computer as well. You can also make your voice known in the Dev. blogs so that they know what features you would like to see. But making endless swan song posts here is of little use. I suppose it's understandable due to the frustration, but it's also pretty much a waste of time and energy.

[Deleted User]

Deleted User last edited by

Since I'm getting some visits from this topic and these forums are going to be disabled anyway (coincidentally at the time when first beta is planned to be released, if current speed will be kept) I've decided to blow dust from my old account.

@woj-tek, thanks for sharing link here, I wasn't brave enough to do that.

Originally posted by Pesala:

If you expect or hope for a complete copy of Opera 12.16 you will inevitably be disappointed. Start looking for another browser now. If you're willing to adapt, and install a few extensions, you may find it worth upgrading before Opera 12.16 becomes obsolete.

Don't be so pessimistic, Rome wasn't built during one night.
It won't be clone, but it will be inspired as much as it is possible, makes sense and is doable.

If someone has more questions then I suggest to ask them on IRC (#otter-browser on freenode), I'm planning to expand FAQ too.

BTW, project management really eats lots of time, more than coding itself.

[A Former User]

A Former User last edited by

Originally posted by Emdek:

Don't be so pessimistic, Rome wasn't built during one night.

I am not being pessimistic at all — just realistic. I said five months ago to Give it a Year, before it would be worth discussing whether it would make the grade.

Then I said “I cannot customise my shortcuts, gestures, search engines, etc.” — and that is still the case, except for search engines, though they are still not as customisable as in Opera 11.64.

How long do you expect users to wait? One year, two, three? I can use Opera 11.64 for the rest of my life — I doubt if others will.

[Deleted User]

Deleted User last edited by

@Pesala, I think we have some kind of misunderstanding here.

I don't believe at all that new Opera will fulfill all needs of old power users accustomed to classic 12.x.
It may regain basic stuff but it takes extremely long (I'm 99% sure that one year passed since decision to move on was done internally and work started, or will pass soon) and since I've read in late May that some of features won't return for sure I've decided that I have to do something with that (repository was created around June 1st).

Sadly to say I'm afraid that myself I've done more progress during two months (real work started in November, as Opera hasn't shown signs of returning to normal, not even releasing promised binaries for Linux) than whole team (yes, it is not a secret that desktop wasn't profitable enough and team is now smaller, but still it is a team, of paid developers :-))...

Maybe Opera will revive, but with great cost to itself and old users.
I cannot wait for eternity on old 12.x.

[frenzie]

frenzie last edited by

Originally posted by Emdek:

If someone has more questions then I suggest to ask them on IRC (#otter-browser on freenode), I'm planning to expand FAQ to

I can't seem to find it on FreeNode, Europe.

[Deleted User]

Deleted User last edited by

@Frenzie, that is weird:

- Welcome to rothfuss.freenode.net in Paris, France, EU! Thanks to
- the ISVTEC for sponsoring this server!

There are currently 16 users connected.

[stng]

stng last edited by

Pesala

I am not being pessimistic at all — just realistic. I said five months ago to Give it a Year, before it would be worth discussing whether it would make the grade.

Then I said “I cannot customise my shortcuts, gestures, search engines, etc.” — and that is still the case, except for search engines, though they are still not as customisable as in Opera 11.64.

How long do you expect users to wait? One year, two, three? I can use Opera 11.64 for the rest of my life — I doubt if others will.

Is there is place for optimism?
Seems that you havn't read the interview with their PR team that related to future plans.
They have no goal, technical abilities and managment decision to rebuild the great Opera browser.
Chropera is a death born child. It should even be call a web-browser (the "shell" is better term).

[frenzie]

frenzie last edited by

Originally posted by Emdek:

@Frenzie, that is weird:

- Welcome to rothfuss.freenode.net in Paris, France, EU! Thanks to
- the ISVTEC for sponsoring this server!

There are currently 16 users connected.

I'll take another look in a bit.

[Deleted User]

Deleted User last edited by

Originally posted by Emdek:

Don't be so pessimistic, Rome wasn't built during one night.

I'm afraid there is a little misunderstanding.
Methinks that Pesala referred to the new Opera Blink while you are talking about Otter.

As far as I'm concerned I've lost all hope for the new Opera Blink. After one year of developement, Opera's new shell for Blink still reminds me of a half-baked Beta. Besides, their 'new vision' doesn't inspire confidence at all. To me at least...
In contrast, I like your idea of a modular browser and the idea of "a web browser controlled by the user, not vice-versa".
I've tested Otter and for an early Alpha it's more than OK. I'll keep an eye on this project/browser.
IMHO, at this early stage it's a little bit early/counterproductive to popularise Otter on different (software) forums.
However once becoming more mature and keeping its promise/slogan, be assured that I will.

I wish you endurance with this project because it is a fantastic challenge for an one-man team

[Deleted User]

Deleted User last edited by

Krake, thanks.
Yeah, it is early, this is why I've focused to put all basic stuff into alpha. Some attention is important, gives motivation.
Also keeping it "secret" for too long could have some not nice side effects...
I've tried to ensure that it will be in state good enough to attract current and former users of classic Opera and give them some hope before they will forgot that there existed browser for power users and will move to Firefox etc.

The "one-man team" starts slowly transitioning to real team, hence I'm now spending more time on management that coding itself.

[opajanusz18]

opajanusz18 last edited by

Moim zdaniem nie ma sensu rozwijać tego projektu (18.19...).Bez funkcjonalności która miała opera 12.16 (presto) ta obecna przeglądarka (klon chrome) z niszowej stanie się zupełnie niedostrzegalną przez użytkowników.Szkoda pieniędzy,czasu i zaangażowania twórców skoro nie wzięto pod uwagę naszych uwag.
In my view, it makes no sense to develop this functionality projektu.Bez which was opera 12.16 (presto) is present browser (Chrome clone) of niche will become completely invisible by użytkowników.Szkoda money, time and effort artists since no account was taken of our observations.

[stevenjcee]

stevenjcee last edited by

Originally posted by leushino:

And as for the bloating, I don't care about it. My computer handles the resource requirements fine and my new computer will handle them even better.

You may not care about the bloating, but when one browser uses almost SEVEN GIGS OF RAM, it messes up my computer, which has 12 gigs, driving my remaining balance far too close to zero, so I do care, and think this much bloating is unsatisfactory...

[blackbird71]

blackbird71 last edited by

Originally posted by StevenCee:

... when one browser uses almost SEVEN GIGS OF RAM, it messes up my computer, which has 12 gigs, driving my remaining balance far too close to zero, so I do care, and think this much bloating is unsatisfactory...

That certainly is a lot of RAM usage. How many tabs/SpeedDials, extensions, or whatever else does Opera have open when the usage climbs that high? (And which Opera version?)

[greekonsun]

greekonsun last edited by

Originally posted by leushino:

And as for the bloating, I don't care about it. My computer handles the resource requirements fine

thats why you're a complete selfish idiot