Option to edit DEFAULT SEARCH ENGINES

stealth789

stealth789

Hi,

I'd like to ask to add option to edit default search engines.

Some of this was discussed here https://forums.opera.com/topic/2352/i-want-to-add-my-own-default-sarch-engines/39 , but this discussion was closed, so I'm not able to react there anymore.

I just like to any relevant reasons why yes/no, as far as I didn't get relevant answer in any previous posts.

PLEASE TRY TO STICK TO THE TOPIC, USE ONLY RELEVANT DETAILED ARGUMENTS.

I'll try to be simple, and sure on the side of users, that need this option, because any other browser allows it. We can't be forced to use something we don't want, or asked for this way like it's now.

So please try to consider this for best of us all. Thank you.

lem729

lem729

If you mean by edit, adding a default. search engine to the five Opera has selected as default, the list was limited because it is my understanding (from what I have read in the forum) that it was deemed by Opera unsafe to add more -- that Opera user searches were being hijacked by adware and malware to unsafe sites. So apparently Opera made a decision to protect the user.

I defer to Opera on this. I believe they should add more search engines to the default (or let the user add more default search engines), if they -- Opera -- deem it safe for the user, and not before. And I defer to Opera for four reasons:

(1) I do not have the evidence before me that Opera had before it made the decision, so I'm not inclined to second guess them on this, particularly where

(2) the workaround is miniscule -- that you can add any search engine to Opera, by going to the website of the search engine and right clicking on the search bar there. You will then have a letter(s) to type in advance of a search query. Usually, it's one letter. So for example, for an Ixquick search (after you add the search to Opera), you could use the main Opera address bar, and type one letter, "i"[space][search query]. One letter to remember. No big deal.

(3) The hijacking of a search query can lead to a highly serious computer infection -- viruses, trojans, malware, credit card and identity theft). Not something that ought ever to be taken lightly.

(4) For Opera to leave it up to the user to decide (if Opera knows that additional search engines would be unsafe) would be negligence. If it were highly unsafe, it would be gross negligence. Yes, some users could protect themselves, but not all users are of equal computer sophistication. Again, because I don't have the information before me that Opera had, and I am not an expert, I believe it would be wise to defer to Opera on this.

As for what other browsers do, they may not have had the hijacking problem, or they may be acting in a careless manner.
It's fine to ask for Opera to permit more default search engines, as long as Opera determines that adding them would not be a significant security risk for the user.

lem729

lem729

I wanted to add the comment by Blackbird71 on his understanding of why the default engines were limited to 5, which was to circumvent "malware that hijacked a browser and inserted its own search engine as default in place of the user's choice," and as part of this hijacking the search result was made to cleverly look like a Google or similar type page of search results. By having five safe engines, it would be easy to control and prevent this type of takeover, by unlocking a hijacking through a simple restart of the browser. See https://forums.opera.com/topic/3441/search-engine-default/6 for the "in context" comment/discussion.

stealth789

stealth789

If you mean by edit, adding a default. search engine to the five Opera has selected as default, the list was limited because it is my understanding (from what I have read in the forum) that it was deemed by Opera unsafe to add more -- that Opera user searches were being hijacked by adware and malware to unsafe sites. So apparently Opera made a decision to protect the user.

Sure I mean to do anything I want. Add/Edit/Remove. And basically there's only one hard-coded, and it's Google. You can simply test this by deleting file C:\Program Files (x86)\Opera\22.0.1471.50\resources\default_partner_content.json. And also this 5 may vary based on location. And as I mentioned, some doesn't use secure connection, so THEY'RE EXPOSING USERS PRIVACY!
And you're telling that Opera 12.17 and other browsers are not protecting users? I'm sorry, but from my point of view, this is only excuse.
And give me example what is hijacked now in current implementation of Opera Blink and why it's no problem in Opera 12.17?

I defer to Opera on this. I believe they should add more search engines to the default (or let the user add more default search engines), if they -- Opera -- deem it safe for the user, and not before. And I defer to Opera for four reasons:

They allow in Opera Presto.

(1) I do not have the evidence before me that Opera had before it made the decision, so I'm not inclined to second guess them on this, particularly where
(2) the workaround is miniscule -- that you can add any search engine to Opera, by going to the website of the search engine and right clicking on the search bar there. You will then have a letter(s) to type in advance of a search query. Usually, it's one letter. So for example, for an Ixquick search (after you add the search to Opera), you could use the main Opera address bar, and type one letter, "i"[space][search query]. One letter to remember. No big deal.

Workaround is not needed. It's making browser less productive than competition. And it's not reason why I cannot change default search engine! Because your statement is, that custom search engines are secure, but default are not? But when you enable custom search engines, you don't care about my security?

And also extensions can change default search engines (for example Disconnect Search)! So you're telling, that you allowed API to change it from outside for any developer. And it's more secure, than change this internally? So where's security issue now. Oh sure, now you don't care....

(3) The hijacking of a search query can lead to a highly serious computer infection -- viruses, trojans, malware, credit card and identity theft). Not something that ought ever to be taken lightly.

Name me possibility of hijacking! Because sure, even fire is dangerous, but I don't write here anything, that is not proved as having connection to current implementation.

(4) For Opera to leave it up to the user to decide (if Opera knows that additional search engines would be unsafe) would be negligence. If it were highly unsafe, it would be gross negligence. Yes, some users could protect themselves, but not all users are of equal computer sophistication. Again, because I don't have the information before me that Opera had, and I am not an expert, I believe it would be wise to defer to Opera on this.

How does Oprea knows what engine I can add? And that it's unsafe. Please first check and correct engineds selected as "safe". Then use this kind of arguments.
So enable change in power user mode! Then arguments about equal is than useless. And you're underestimating many of power users!

As for what other browsers do, they may not have had the hijacking problem, or they may be acting in a careless manner.
It's fine to ask for Opera to permit more default search engines, as long as Opera determines that adding them would not be a significant security risk for the user.

Please don't make statement that other browser are careless! First give some prove. It's not honest to argument like this.

And Opera 12.17 (and older long time used older versions) is careless? So basically Opera is careless? So now I can chooose?
Please think twice before blaming others.... I just don't like and I'm unhappy to see arguments of this kind without prove :(.

And Opera determined based on what?

stealth789

stealth789

I wanted to add the comment by Blackbird71 on his understanding of why the default engines were limited to 5, which was to circumvent "malware that hijacked a browser and inserted its own search engine as default in place of the user's choice," and as part of this hijacking the search result was made to cleverly look like a Google or similar type page of search results. By having five safe engines, it would be easy to control and prevent this type of takeover, by unlocking a hijacking through a simple restart of the browser. See https://forums.opera.com/topic/3441/search-engine-default/6 for the "in context" comment/discussion.

Sure I commented there also.

lem729

lem729

That Disconnect Search extension is an Opera approved extension. That means Opera reviewed it. I have no reason to distrust their review, or feel unsafe using that extension. The Disconnect Search Extension increases -- not decreases -- user safety by concealing one's search inquiries from the prying eyes of others.

I didn't accuse other browsers of being careless. I only suggested that they "may" be, because you cited these other browsers, as having no restrictions on the default search engines a user wishes to set up. There's a world of difference in using the word "may." It's a possibility, not a certainty, but . . . since you had mentioned that other browsers permit more default searches, allow me to point out that as I suspected these other browsers have been having security problems. This issue has been discussed in another post by Blackbird71, that I commend to your reading.

https://forums.opera.com/topic/3441/search-engine-default/11

For me, the new Opera is my home port. It's the browser I use to the general exclusion of others. I want to feel relatively safe with it, not like i'm playing Russian Roulette. I'm quite uncomfortable, in light of the severity of repercussions if there's a search engine hijacking second-guessing Opera on whether offering a default search engine is safe or not. If they say it's not, I have no reason to ignore that.

Are we that hungry for the bargain of the extra default engine? It would penny wise and pound foolish. The workarounds are a truly minimal hardship -- adding an extension search bar (We have such a search bar for Ixqick, and Duckduckgo and perhaps others), or typing a one letter code in front of the search engine you want to use, adding it to the Opera browser (and you can choose almost any engine to add to Opera). These modest workarounds are no big deal, in comparison to having credit cards numbers compromised, bank accounts stolen, identity theft. If the passwords in your computer are taken as part of a search engine hijacking, your life is not secure.

As for your suggestion about permitting additional searches, but only maybe in Power User mode, it really depends on how severe Opera views the threat. If they felt it not a big risk, Power User mode, as you suggest, would be an option. But if it is a significant risk, then I would not even permit it there. I would protect you from yourself ;). You can be productive enough typing the one letter before a search, or using a search bar for an additonal search engine. I'm not worried about competing with other browsers, if it means competing with them in foolhardy fashion.

stealth789

stealth789

That Disconnect Search extension is an Opera approved extension. That means Opera reviewed it. I have no reason to distrust their review, or feel unsafe using that extension. The Disconnect Search Extension increases -- not decreases -- user safety by concealing one's search inquiries from the prying eyes of others.

Sure I have no doubt about safety of this extension. It's just example, that it's possible. Because now you're telling, that other company/developer can change default search provider, and it's secure, no problem, even Opera approws it. But Opera can't?

I didn't accuse other browsers of being careless. I only suggested that they "may" be, because you cited these other browsers, as having no restrictions on the default search engines a user wishes to set up. There's a world of difference in using the word "may." It's a possibility, not a certainty, but . . . since you had mentioned that other browsers permit more default searches, allow me to point out that as I suspected these other browsers have been having security problems. This issue has been discussed in another post by Blackbird71, that I commend to your reading.
https://forums.opera.com/topic/3441/search-engine-default/11

I've read it. But the have no problem with allowing user to change default search engine. And I've never have any mentioned problems. So still you're arguing with specific group of users. It doesn't mean all of us.

For me, the new Opera is my home port. It's the browser I use to the general exclusion of others. I want to feel relatively safe with it, not like i'm playing Russian Roulette. I'm quite uncomfortable, in light of the severity of repercussions if there's a search engine hijacking second-guessing Opera on whether offering a default search engine is safe or not. If they say it's not, I have no reason to ignore that.

You're comparing changing of search engine to Russian roulette? Really? You can feel safe with default search engine. I'm not forcing anyone to change their default search engine. Opera is kind of doing this. Or better you're stating this. I want to change my default search engine. Not to change it to someone else. There's huge difference.
And I don't have reason to ignore. But I'm not blind, and I made decisions on my own. I don't understand, why anybody thinks, that they're better than anybody else, and can decide something for me by force / restriction ...

Are we that hungry for the bargain of the extra default engine? It would penny wise and pound foolish. The workarounds are a truly minimal hardship -- adding an extension search bar (We have such a search bar for Ixqick, and Duckduckgo and perhaps others), or typing a one letter code in front of the search engine you want to use, adding it to the Opera browser (and you can choose almost any engine to add to Opera). These modest workarounds are no big deal, in comparison to having credit cards numbers compromised, bank accounts stolen, identity theft. If the passwords in your computer are taken as part of a search engine hijacking, your life is not secure.

It's question of principle. Why I'm forced to use something, when there's something better for me that I'd like? And why are you so disallowing. You can still keep your engine. No one is forcing you or anybody to change it for yourself. Or deciding for you. But you're! And when you're allowing extensions for search and also custom search engine. What's the difference here for default one? Basically you don't care if I'll get malware by custom engine, but care if it's from "default" one? How is it different if I change default one to my option? You mean, that you can argue, that I choosed it? Sure the same way and with my responsibility I can choose default one. What's the difference???

As for your suggestion about permitting additional searches, but only maybe in Power User mode, it really depends on how severe Opera views the threat. If they felt it not a big risk, Power User mode, as you suggest, would be an option. But if it is a significant risk, then I would not even permit it there. I would protect you from yourself ;). You can be productive enough typing the one letter before a search, or using a search bar for an additonal search engine. I'm not worried about competing with other browsers, if it means competing with them in foolhardy fashion.

Please give me an example, when custom / extension provided search engine is not threat, but changing default one is. And what is the risk exactly when power user change it? Still I can change and use custom one. Then it's secure? Because here I can go way to, don't use browser, disconnect my internet cable. Then I'll be safe? It's just one setting. And you're making it a big deal. So what's exactly the problem here?

And I'm trying to find either different way good for both sides. You're still just arguing against every option.

lem729

lem729

A. You say: "Why I'm forced to use something, when there's something better for me that I'd like?" You say, " I don't understand, why anybody thinks, that they're better than anybody else, and can decide something for me by force / restriction ..."

Because, Stealth789, this isn't a world where you get everything you want. Maybe I want to drive down the highway a 100 miles an hour. The state says no, or the country. You can't have whatever you want. What gives you the right to think you can. Now you're getting a "free browser." You're not paying a penny, but act as if you have rights here. How so? This is incredible that you act as if this is a question of your freedom. And by the way, Opera is a business. If they act negligently in providing unsafe search engines, it's possible they could be sued. Will you help pay for their liability damages if they are? I certainly hope so, since you are so cavalier about thinking they should grant you the right to use additional search engines, even if they deem it unsafe.

B. You say: "And when you're allowing extensions for search and also custom search engine. What's the difference here for default one?"

But Stealth789, I defer to the Opera developer, not to you. I trust them, not someone in the forum lobbying as hard as you are for a position, I have myself great reservations about about pushing them to act in a way that they deem unsafe.

C. You say: "Please give me an example, when custom / extension provided search engine is not threat, but changing default one is."

How many times do I have to repeat this? This thread is getting tiresome. I don't have to prove anything. I don't have to give examples. I defer to the Opera developer here. I'm a layman. It's not my area of expertise. If my car breaks down, I don't fix it myself. I go to a mechanic. I go to someone I trust!!! I trust the Opera developer on this issue, and not you. Not personal offense, of course, intended. In fact, I don't trust anyone lobbying hard on this issue in this forum. As I mentioned in a related thread, "if people were trying to hijack the Opera search engines, would it surprise anyone if they came into the Opera forum, and tried aggressively to encourage Opera to expand search engines, so that it would be easier to hijack them? The reality is that anyone who has an interest in hijacking an Opera web search engine would have an interest in setting up an identity in the forum (they'd probably be relatively new to the forum), and in aggressively pushing Opera to have more search engines (because Opera cannot protect them as well).

D. You say: "You're still just arguing against every option."

Maybe every option is bad, except the one Opera has chosen. I'm not arguing against the option Opera has chosen. Why do you assume there's an option that is better than what they have decided. Anyway, the Opera developer is the party I trust, not to expose me to risk of search engine hijacking, password theft, identity theft, etc. They have an interest in acting in a non-negligent fashion, because if they are negligent, they assume financial risk. This is a hugely important issue, and I'm concerned about how casually you seem to dismiss it.

stealth789

stealth789

A. You say: "Why I'm forced to use something, when there's something better for me that I'd like?" You say, " I don't understand, why anybody thinks, that they're better than anybody else, and can decide something for me by force / restriction ..."
Because, Stealth789, this isn't a world where you get everything you want. Maybe I want to drive down the highway a 100 miles an hour. The state says no, or the country. You can't have whatever you want. What gives you the right to think you can. Now you're getting a "free browser." You're not paying a penny, but act as if you have rights here. How so? This is incredible that you act as if this is a question of your freedom. And by the way, Opera is a business. If they act negligently in providing unsafe search engines, it's possible they could be sued. Will you help pay for their liability damages if they are? I certainly hope so, since you are so cavalier about thinking they should grant you the right to use additional search engines, even if they deem it unsafe.

Who stated that somebody can get whatever they want? And sure some rules are reasonable. Some are not. And so are changing over time. And we can debate about "free" browser on forum of browser business model. But it's another topic.

And by rights you mean what? To express my opinion. And use regular arguments? Please explain me, what part of debate is not regular, and what kind of special right is that I've got? To ask? To reply?

And sued. Ok. What can I sue them for? That I used something on my own? So any other browser should be sued. It's like anybody can sue them, because they allowed me to change settings? Really. I think that this things are covered. But sure maybe there's way. I don't know.
But also Opera didn't ask me if I want to send every site I visit to fraud check. So when I ask for additional option (even cover by power user settings) I'm wrong here? I'm asking, and arguing. I thought that's correct.

B. You say: "And when you're allowing extensions for search and also custom search engine. What's the difference here for default one?"
But Stealth789, I defer to the Opera developer, not to you. I trust them, not someone in the forum lobbying as hard as you are for a position, I have myself great reservations about about pushing them to act in a way that they deem unsafe.

Since when is arguing pushing? What exactly is pushing? That I'm not the one that stops when someone said so? If there won't be arguments that are reasonable, and more question to discuss, sure there's no much more to talk about. But till now I thought that it's regular debate. If I'm against some rules, just let me know what it it that I broke. Because in that case I'm sorry, but I'm not aware of this.

C. You say: "Please give me an example, when custom / extension provided search engine is not threat, but changing default one is."
How many times do I have to repeat this? This thread is getting tiresome. I don't have to prove anything. I don't have to give examples. I defer to the Opera developer here. I'm a layman. It's not my area of expertise. If my car breaks down, I don't fix it myself. I go to a mechanic. I go to someone I trust!!! I trust the Opera developer on this issue, and not you. Not personal offense, of course, intended. In fact, I don't trust anyone lobbying hard on this issue in this forum. As I mentioned in a related thread, "if people were trying to hijack the Opera search engines, would it surprise anyone if they came into the Opera forum, and tried aggressively to encourage Opera to expand search engines, so that it would be easier to hijack them? The reality is that anyone who has an interest in hijacking an Opera web search engine would have an interest in setting up an identity in the forum (they'd probably be relatively new to the forum), and in aggressively pushing Opera to have more search engines (because Opera cannot protect them as well).

Sure you don't have to. Even reply, I get it. Ok, but then why you're trying to convince me, or force to let go, when you're as you stated no "car repairer"? Don't get me wrong. But I'm just using correct arguments, in debate. So what's wrong with it? An I you don't need to trust me to be able to argument, when arguments are to the topic. I'm not saying "Add this option, because I said so.". I'm trying to use arguments why or how there can be way for both sides. So please don't expect me to give up without proper reasons either. I just didn't see here on forum through debate on this topic. So I thought we can debate it here. This is the place. More reasons, more arguments the better the decision. That's my point. Then anybody can consider it better. To consider for and againsts. Made good decision, when most it debated. Nothing more, nothing less. Some kind of compromise would be great. Not forcing. But expressing my reasons and point of view within rules.

D. You say: "You're still just arguing against every option."
Maybe every option is bad, except the one Opera has chosen. I'm not arguing against the option Opera has chosen. Why do you assume there's an option that is better than what they have decided. Anyway, the Opera developer is the party I trust, not to expose me to risk of search engine hijacking, password theft, identity theft, etc. They have an interest in acting in a non-negligent fashion, because if they are negligent, they assume financial risk. This is a hugely important issue, and I'm concerned about how casually you seem to dismiss it.

And please don't state Opera as some bighead with only and best decisions. I'm saying that there's way for reasonable compromise good for anybody. So just simply react, why some way can't be. What's bad with it, so any reasonable conclusion can be made. Because now it looks just like "It won't be, just because".
And sure from now I'm getting to know that money can be real issue here. But practically? Google pay to Firefox, and still there's way to change their search engine. Because even so, not everybody will change default engine, and they know it. Only users that knows what they're doing. But if money are reason behind this all, simply write it down. It will be reason enough, that it won't be changed because of this. But still I don't think that Opera is getting money from Wikipedia. But here I'm really not so sure. But then it's not real question about security. But it's another theme.

lem729

lem729

I guess we won't agree on this. The last thing in the world I want is for Opera to permit browser search engines it views as inherently unsafe. I look to The Opera developer to establish safety standards in its browser. I don't want their carelessness or negligence in setting up a pruduct -- or in capitulating to certain forum complainant's demands -- to put users at risk. If they deem more search engines as dangerous, but permit them on the browser, they would be remiss in their responsibility to users. It would be negligent to do so, particularly given the grave consequencies that can flow from hijacked search engine searches.

I fully support more search engines as a default in Opera, when the Opera developer deems it safe to do so.

blackbird71

blackbird71

...
And you're telling that Opera 12.17 and other browsers are not protecting users? I'm sorry, but from my point of view, this is only excuse.
And give me example what is hijacked now in current implementation of Opera Blink and why it's no problem in Opera 12.17?
...
They allow in Opera Presto.
...

As for what other browsers do, they may not have had the hijacking problem, or they may be acting in a careless manner.
It's fine to ask for Opera to permit more default search engines, as long as Opera determines that adding them would not be a significant security risk for the user.

Please don't make statement that other browser are careless! First give some prove. It's not honest to argument like this. And Opera 12.17 (and older long time used older versions) is careless? So basically Opera is careless?
...

Wrong. In Presto Opera 12.15 through 12.17, it is NOT allowed to set a custom default search engine and have it persist across a browser shutdown/restart cycle. That is one of the major changes made in the update from 12.14, and the statement by Opera made at the time was that it was being done to prevent browser hijacking. That new approach to limiting default search engines was simply continued with Blink Opera. You or I may disagree with Opera's thinking on this, but it's their call to make, and they've given their reasons for why; further, it's been the case from the later Presto days onward.

Back in Presto days, Opera had another policy that used to drive some users crazy, which was their adherence to standards that, on an https page, disallowed browser connections being made/called from that page to an unsecure http page/site. That played havoc for some users at certain web sites that were coded sloppily, and those users were vehement in their demand that Opera relax their practices "like all the other browsers". Opera would not, citing security issues as their rationale.

Opera makes the browser; Opera is responsible for the security protections they put in it. As a suggestion that Opera find a way to safely allow user customization of the browser default search engine, I can heartily agree. But any suggestion that they simply relax their perceptions of what is safe for users is not something that I would be willing to do.

blackbird71

blackbird71

...
Please give me an example, when custom / extension provided search engine is not threat, but changing default one is.
...

The entire subject of extensions is incredibly complex, in part because it opens a door to a browser becoming an entirely different "animal" than it was in its bare-bones state. Opera is accountable for the design of its browsers; in most cases, 3rd-party developers are responsible for the design of their extensions. Opera does what it deems safe in its browsers. If extensions bypass some of Opera's safety-related design choices, that's for the extension developers and the users to decide... but it doesn't impact what Opera feels is safe at any given time. Just because an extension might bypass a protection of a default setting doesn't equate to Opera necessarily agreeing with it.

Frankly, the whole business of extensions is its own security "fur ball", at least in how it's usually done (the extensions not being designed, supported, vetted, and supplied by the browser maker itself). It's one of the modern browser developments that I take strong issue with... but that's just me.

lem729

lem729

Opera extensions undergo a fairly rigid Opera review, before being approved, including Opera's "review of the code," and that the extension: "must not collect private information without authorization from the user."

http://dev.opera.com/extensions/tut_publishing_guidelines.html

My understanding is that Opera gives has given a more rigorous review/vetting to it's extensions than Google has to Chrome extensions, at least as of a year ago. http://browserfame.com/1928/chrome-vs-opera

In any event, this issue of Opera setting up a procedure where one can add a search engine, by going to the website of the search engine and right clicking on the search bar, then have a one letter (or maybe two) code to type before a search from the Opera address bar is strictly within Opera. It is not an extension work-around. And it is presumably deemed by Opera safer than permitting the adding of more default search engines.

If the Opera developer deems that process safer for the user than adding default search engines (which has certain hijacking risks deemed by Opera unacceptable), I have no reason or desire to second-guess Opera on that.

stealth789

stealth789

I guess we won't agree on this. The last thing in the world I want is for Opera to permit browser search engines it views as inherently unsafe. I look to The Opera developer to establish safety standards in its browser. I don't want their carelessness or negligence in setting up a pruduct -- or in capitulating to certain forum complainant's demands -- to put users at risk. If they deem more search engines as dangerous, but permit them on the browser, they would be remiss in their responsibility to users. It would be negligent to do so, particularly given the grave consequencies that can flow from hijacked search engine searches.
I fully support more search engines as a default in Opera, when the Opera developer deems it safe to do so.

I'm not talking about making Opera less secure. I'm talking about option to safe change of search engine, if it's possible. And I think there are ways how to make it possible to be safe for standard users, but even power users. And simply if you allow something, it doesn't necessarily mean it insecure. It's like say, that it's insecure for my firewall to allow opera access to port HTTP.
Here it's question if it's possible to allow users to change engine safe way. And when you don't agree, I'm asking why and trying to giving other options. When someone say simple no, I'm asking why, and if there's not any other way. What's wrong with that?

lem729

lem729

Yes, but I defer to Opera on what is safe. If they think adding more default search engines is not safe (because of the risk of search engine hijackings), that's enough for me. There's nothing in any of the posts in this thread to demonstrate or even to suggest that Opera has exercised its discretion in an improper manner. It is Opera's call, and Opera's alone. If you're saying that you want more default search engines, if Opera determines that adding them is safe, then I agree with that.

stealth789

stealth789

...
And you're telling that Opera 12.17 and other browsers are not protecting users? I'm sorry, but from my point of view, this is only excuse.
And give me example what is hijacked now in current implementation of Opera Blink and why it's no problem in Opera 12.17?
...
They allow in Opera Presto.
...

As for what other browsers do, they may not have had the hijacking problem, or they may be acting in a careless manner.
It's fine to ask for Opera to permit more default search engines, as long as Opera determines that adding them would not be a significant security risk for the user.

Please don't make statement that other browser are careless! First give some prove. It's not honest to argument like this. And Opera 12.17 (and older long time used older versions) is careless? So basically Opera is careless?
...
Wrong. In Presto Opera 12.15 through 12.17, it is NOT allowed to set a custom default search engine and have it persist across a browser shutdown/restart cycle. That is one of the major changes made in the update from 12.14, and the statement by Opera made at the time was that it was being done to prevent browser hijacking. That new approach to limiting default search engines was simply continued with Blink Opera. You or I may disagree with Opera's thinking on this, but it's their call to make, and they've given their reasons for why; further, it's been the case from the later Presto days onward.

Maybe partially wrong. I used Opera 12.17. And even older releases. You can't claim it wrong just on your selected sample versions from many of them. But still in this case it strictly question of security. Not about that you can't use engine XYZ.

Back in Presto days, Opera had another policy that used to drive some users crazy, which was their adherence to standards that, on an https page, disallowed browser connections being made/called from that page to an unsecure http page/site. That played havoc for some users at certain web sites that were coded sloppily, and those users were vehement in their demand that Opera relax their practices "like all the other browsers". Opera would not, citing security issues as their rationale.

I understand that security is primary. So if it's security in this case. Let's say if only power users, or even in file like "Web Data" will change this. Is it still insecure? Or basically you saying, there's no secure way to provide this option? I don't think so.

Opera makes the browser; Opera is responsible for the security protections they put in it. As a suggestion that Opera find a way to safely allow user customization of the browser default search engine, I can heartily agree. But any suggestion that they simply relax their perceptions of what is safe for users is not something that I would be willing to do.

Ok, so why for example in search engines there are some that don't use HTTPS connection, even when server side supports it? Where's the security there?
Sure I highly honor security. But not as excuse for right reasons.

stealth789

stealth789

...
Please give me an example, when custom / extension provided search engine is not threat, but changing default one is.
...

The entire subject of extensions is incredibly complex, in part because it opens a door to a browser becoming an entirely different "animal" than it was in its bare-bones state. Opera is accountable for the design of its browsers; in most cases, 3rd-party developers are responsible for the design of their extensions. Opera does what it deems safe in its browsers. If extensions bypass some of Opera's safety-related design choices, that's for the extension developers and the users to decide... but it doesn't impact what Opera feels is safe at any given time. Just because an extension might bypass a protection of a default setting doesn't equate to Opera necessarily agreeing with it.
Frankly, the whole business of extensions is its own security "fur ball", at least in how it's usually done (the extensions not being designed, supported, vetted, and supplied by the browser maker itself). It's one of the modern browser developments that I take strong issue with... but that's just me.

I used extension as example. To know if problem is?

a) We can't use any / specific search engine - mean to select engine ABC, as Opera didn't check it whatever.
b) We can't use other engines, because for now there's no secure way to change this engine, without compromising security.

stealth789

stealth789

Opera extensions undergo a fairly rigid Opera review, before being approved, including Opera's "review of the code," and that the extension: "must not collect private information without authorization from the user."
http://dev.opera.com/extensions/tut_publishing_guidelines.html
My understanding is that Opera gives has given a more rigorous review/vetting to it's extensions than Google has to Chrome extensions, at least as of a year ago. http://browserfame.com/1928/chrome-vs-opera
In any event, this issue of Opera setting up a procedure where one can add a search engine, by going to the website of the search engine and right clicking on the search bar, then have a one letter (or maybe two) code to type before a search from the Opera address bar is strictly within Opera. It is not an extension work-around. And it is presumably deemed by Opera safer than permitting the adding of more default search engines.
If the Opera developer deems that process safer for the user than adding default search engines (which has certain hijacking risks deemed by Opera unacceptable), I have no reason or desire to second-guess Opera on that.

From developer point of view. Practically speaking, there's no huge difference between custom and define search engine. If we're talking about code. More about are different reasons why don't allow it.

But if I make extension that allows to use any there defined engine, would it be acceptable by Opera? Let's say some Disconnect Search act like extension with ability to use custom engine? Or when this extension will have let's say 100 fixed engines, but you can set any as default. Will Opera allow it? Again using also address bar to input search term?

lem729

lem729

But if I make extension that allows to use any there defined engine, would it be acceptable by Opera? Let's say some Disconnect Search act like extension with ability to use custom engine? Or when this extension will have let's say 100 fixed engines, but you can set any as default. Will Opera allow it? Again using also address bar to input search term?

You say: "But if I make extension that allows to use any there defined engine, would it be acceptable by Opera?"

I have no idea as to the answer to your question. You'd have to meet the Opera review criteria, which are fairly extensive. http://dev.opera.com/extensions/tut_publishing_guidelines.html

Every case is individual, and must meet the extensive Opera review criteria for approval of an extension. You cannot generalize from Opera's approval of the Disconnect Search extension. The Disconnect Search extension was approved by Opera (but the whole Disconnect enterprise is focused on safety (designed to prevent Internet Service Providers and thousands of websites from seeing your searches and tracking you), so the Opera review (of the code of that extension) and the determination that it was okay and safe for Opera users, is no precedent for how Opera would react to a different extension that permitted a search (using a search engine that is not one of the five Opera Default engines) from the Opera Address Bar. It would no doubt be coded differently, reviewed on its own terms, based on the Opera review criteria. The whole Disconnect enterprise by an ostensibly reputable enterprise has has a lot of positive reviews, and surely was determined by Opera to add needed and valuable functionality (providing a search that is anonymous).

http://techcrunch.com/2013/04/17/disconnect-2-brings-more-privacy-to-your-browser-lets-you-block-2k-sites-from-tracking-your-activity-online/

http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2011/02/27/wall-street-journal-privacy-series-inspires-one-start-up/

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/03/technology/personaltech/sweeping-away-a-search-history.html?_r=0

Opera's review of extension codes is designed to determine among other things, that there are no obvious bugs. If Opera deems the extension code malicious (one that could permit a search engine hijacking), one could easily guess to a 99.9 percent certainty that they would not approve it, or at least I would hope I mean a third party search bar (created by an extension) which can be easily taken over and hijacked would seem like an obvious "bug." Also, all extensions are reviewed to ensure that the extension must not collect private information without authorization from the user. It must not send private data to an external store.

On the insurance of safety through the native browser, and its review of extensions, at this point, it seems to me that it's Opera's call. I see no reason to second guess Opera. The safety decision is theirs.

As to the "safety" issue in the native Opera browser, I cannot urge Opera developers to "safely" add additional default search engines (as you have suggested), because that presumes that it can be safely done, and in a cost effective manner. That's putting the cart before the horse. Rather, I would urge that IF they can safely and cost-effectively add additional search engines, then they should do it.

stealth789

stealth789

But if I make extension that allows to use any there defined engine, would it be acceptable by Opera? Let's say some Disconnect Search act like extension with ability to use custom engine? Or when this extension will have let's say 100 fixed engines, but you can set any as default. Will Opera allow it? Again using also address bar to input search term?

You say: "But if I make extension that allows to use any there defined engine, would it be acceptable by Opera?"
I have no idea as to the answer to your question. You'd have to meet the Opera review criteria, which are fairly extensive. http://dev.opera.com/extensions/tut_publishing_guidelines.html
Every case is individual, and must meet the extensive Opera review criteria for approval of an extension. You cannot generalize from Opera's approval of the Disconnect Search extension. The Disconnect Search extension was approved by Opera (but the whole Disconnect enterprise is focused on safety (designed to prevent Internet Service Providers and thousands of websites from seeing your searches and tracking you), so the Opera review (of the code of that extension) and the determination that it was okay and safe for Opera users, is no precedent for how Opera would react to a different extension that permitted a search (using a search engine that is not one of the five Opera Default engines) from the Opera Address Bar. It would no doubt be coded differently, reviewed on its own terms, based on the Opera review criteria. The whole Disconnect enterprise by a ostensibly reputable enterprise has has a lot of positive reviews, and surely was determined by Opera to add needed and valuable functionality (providing a search where that search is anonymous).

Sure I understand that it's individual. But I don't find there anything mentioning my scenario. Still Opera can remove any contents on their pages if they want. Or there's part about option to edit.

To be accurate, Opera has 10 engines (now). But sure 5 are active based on location. When I don't count location variants there are: allegro, amazon, baidu, bing, google, rambler, seznam, wiki, yahoo, yandex. From this 10: 1 use secure connection, 2 don't use HTTPS (even it's supported by server), and 7 don't use HTTPS, because they just don't support it. So basically only 1 is secure, without uncovering my privacy!

And when we're talking about positive reviews, also read about StartPage/Ixquick or DuckDuckGo. Or other secure and safe search engines. Not to force you, but to know, there are other alternatives. And power users knows it, and want to be secure.

http://techcrunch.com/2013/04/17/disconnect-2-brings-more-privacy-to-your-browser-lets-you-block-2k-sites-from-tracking-your-activity-online/
http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2011/02/27/wall-street-journal-privacy-series-inspires-one-start-up/
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/03/technology/personaltech/sweeping-away-a-search-history.html?_r=0
Opera's review of the codes is designed to determine among other things, where there are any obvious bugs. If Opera deems the extension code malicious (one that could permit a search engine hijacking), one could easily guess they would not approve it, or at least I would hope I mean a third party search bar (created by an extension) which can be easily taken over and hijacked would seem like an obvious "bug." Also, all extensions are reviewed to ensure that the extension must not collect private information without authorization from the user. It must not send private data to an external store.

Sure I understand about privacy. But there are extensions that allow you to search from specific popup windows. But still if it's possible to override default engine like Disconnect Search extension, then it's just possible.

On the insurance of safety through the native browser, and its review of extensions, at this point, it seems to me that it's Opera's call. I see no reason to second guess Opera. The safety decision is theirs.

Sure if Oprea won't approve it, there's no way. At least not to provide extension on Opera site. Still there are Options to use different site. But it sure will look unsafe in first place. So hope people don't use any of this kind of extensions.

I cannot urge them to "safely" add additional default search engines, because that presumes that it can be safely done in a cost effective manner. That's putting the cart before the horse. Rather, I would urge that if they can safely and cost-effectively add additional search engines, then they should do it.

Sure. I'm not asking anybody to do it, just because. I'm trying to argument, and find a way. And anybody can read arguments, and made decision on their own. I don't think that argue more is worse for decision.

As for now I use 5 browsers. For example IE for specific portal applications, and also Chromium, Firefox, TorBrowser and sure Opera as main browser. In any other of them I have custom engine. So basically when I switch to another one, I'm expecting it to work. Now when I'm in Opera I have to press key. And as you know people forget. So time to time it's hard when you again see results you won't see. It's disturbing, and also from my personal point un-secure (it's just personal preference).