Where are the bookmarks in Opera 18?

[cooljoebay]

cooljoebay last edited by

NO PERSONAL TOOLBAR!!

I fully agree with the op. The new opera is a piece of shit. There's no nice way to put it. It's a major step backwards. And it seems like a political move to me because I know NOBODY is stupid enough to have created this version on purpose and with good intentions. They probably want to piss everyone off just to get attention. Its all about competition and profit I guess. If I am wrong, then prove it. Goodbye quality product. Hello, prettier but dumber one. :rip:

YOU CAN'T EVEN CHANGE THE BUTTONS ANYMORE!!

[A Former User]

A Former User last edited by

Originally posted by cooljoebay:

If I am wrong, then prove it.

See how to enable the personal toolbar in Opera 18.

You are wrong in so many ways, but I won't bother to go into details. It has all been said before. Search the forums before posting nonsense.

[Deleted User]

Deleted User last edited by

Originally posted by Pesala:

Originally posted by cooljoebay:

If I am wrong, then prove it.

See how to enable the personal toolbar in Opera 18.

You are wrong in so many ways, but I won't bother to go into details. It has all been said before. Search the forums before posting nonsense.

The forums say many things. For example, the forums say that the QAB is not a bookmarks manager. Some official comments by the employees imply that the bookmarks manager is in the making, hence it is non-existent right now. On the other hand, the original intention appears to have been that everybody should be happy with the extended speed dial for all their bookmarks and their management. Then again, the bookmarks importer doesn't work for the majority, as seen in the current thread. Etc.

If you were objective, you would be capable of some adequate comparisons between the current product and Opera 11 that you use, and also compare the current product with other browsers. In which browser are bookmarks an experimental feature hidden under advanced settings, risky and unreliable to switch on?

[A Former User]

A Former User last edited by

Originally posted by ersi:

For example, the forums say that the QAB is not a bookmarks manager.

cooljoebay complained about the lack of a personal toolbar, aka Bookmarks Bar, aka Quick Access Bar. I think rilef's comment explains why it's not enabled by default yet.

Originally posted by rilef:

The current implementation of the Quick Access Bar(QAB)/Bookmarks Toolbar appears to be a temporary patch, not a permanent, albeit incomplete, solution to the absence of bookmarks. The QAB database appears to be a plain text file, named simply "bookmarks", and kept in the user's profile folder, rather than in a modern database file.

[frenzie]

frenzie last edited by

Originally posted by Pesala:

Originally posted by ersi:

For example, the forums say that the QAB is not a bookmarks manager.

cooljoebay complained about the lack of a personal toolbar, aka Bookmarks Bar, aka Quick Access Bar. I think rilef's comment explains why it's not enabled by default yet.

Originally posted by rilef:

The current implementation of the Quick Access Bar(QAB)/Bookmarks Toolbar appears to be a temporary patch, not a permanent, albeit incomplete, solution to the absence of bookmarks. The QAB database appears to be a plain text file, named simply "bookmarks", and kept in the user's profile folder, rather than in a modern database file.

Whoa, whoa, whoa! If it's a plain-text file that's freaking fantastic! The first good news I've heard.

[frenzie]

frenzie last edited by

Originally posted by rilef:

The "bookmarks" plain text file, if it indeed serves as the QAB database, is the only Opera 18 database I've found that is plain text. That's why I think it's a temporary, quick fix.

Would you rather access your data through SQLite? I've had to do some of that in Firefox. It's a huge increase in complexity with not one single advantage as far as I can see. It just puts the user further away from their data. I can do it, but that's besides the point. If Opera had thrown up database-based obstacles back in 2001 chances are I wouldn't be able to today.

I'm probably wrong, but I prefer to think of it as a first step toward bringing Opera/Presto proper Unix-style plain-text configuration to the overall atrocity of Chromium.

Edit: grammar "If Opera would've thrown up" -> "If Opera had thrown up"

[Deleted User]

Deleted User last edited by

Originally posted by Frenzie:

Would you rather access your data through SQLite? I've had to do some of that in Firefox. It's a huge increase in complexity with not one single advantage as far as I can see.

Because you tried to see it from the perspective of an user.
If you try to see it from the perspective of a contractor, there is a big advantage which you already mentioned:

Originally posted by Frenzie:

It just puts the user further away from their data.

[frenzie]

frenzie last edited by

Originally posted by Krake:

If you try to see it from the perspective of a contractor, there is a big advantage which you already mentioned

I'm not sure who the contractor is, but how do they profit from that?

[Deleted User]

Deleted User last edited by

Originally posted by Frenzie:

I'm not sure who the contractor is,

Neither am I. If I recall exactly, it was Bruce Lawson who mentioned about contractors in the (old) Desktop Team Blog.
It was about Opera considering wishes of their user base but also having to consider those of its contractors.
It doesn't need a genius to realise that wishes of the two parties don't have to overlap unconditioned all the time...

Originally posted by Frenzie:

but how do they profit from that?

My comment was about generally killing user friendly formats to make it harder to access, review, modify or delete default content.

With Australis, Mozilla went a step onward starting to remove from the GUI a basic option. Namely switching on/off scripting.
Of course there are still workarounds for this but it is only a first step...

[frenzie]

frenzie last edited by

Originally posted by Krake:

My comment was about generally killing user friendly formats to make it harder to access, review, modify or delete default content.

Yet it can't be that much harder to write some malware that (ab)uses SQLite to change something or other about your bookmarks than to write some that messes with your plain-text bookmarks. In both cases you have to figure out the data format and you have to write a program to manipulate it. Heck, it might actually be simpler to do it with SQLite because a library that does all the information getting and setting for you will already be available on the system, while with plain-text you potentially might have to reverse engineer some stuff the program in question does. I wouldn't be surprised if SQLite puts malware authors closer to your data or at the very least no further, while it only makes things less accessible to the user.

And as for the general trend, that's very true. At some point in the past few years Skype also switched from plain-text logs to either SQLite or something similar. I don't care that it's proprietary or whatever, but that's making me reconsider my use of the program. I want to search my logs with whatever tool I freaking want, including 50 years from now when I barely even remember what Skype the proprietary binary was. Plain text is for the ages and super convenient.

[Deleted User]

Deleted User last edited by

Originally posted by Frenzie:

Originally posted by Krake:

My comment was about generally killing user friendly formats to make it harder to access, review, modify or delete default content.

Yet it can't be that much harder to write some malware that (ab)uses SQLite to change something or other about your bookmarks than to write some that messes with your plain-text bookmarks.

Once again, my comment wasn't related to bookmarks specifically but for killing user friendly formats generally.
And no it's not meant to prevent malware to access, review, modify or delete default content but the user.

Once started and gaining privileges malware can do anything, regardless of how software is designed.

[frenzie]

frenzie last edited by

Originally posted by Krake:

Once again, my comment wasn't related to bookmarks specifically but for killing user friendly formats generally.
And no it's not meant to prevent malware to access, review, modify or delete default content but the user.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Are you saying it's a form of proprietary lock-in? It's my data. I want to access and modify it however I want.

Originally posted by Krake:

Once started and gaining privileges malware can do anything, regardless of how software is designed.

Exactly. This, a thousand times this.

[Deleted User]

Deleted User last edited by

Originally posted by Frenzie:

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. Are you saying it's a form of proprietary lock-in?

Exactly.
It's up to you to use such software or not. However I'm afraid your (and our all) options are very limited and will be even more in the future...

[j7nj7n]

j7nj7n last edited by

Originally posted by Frenzie:

I wouldn't be surprised if SQLite puts malware authors closer to your data or at the very least no further, while it only makes things less accessible to the user.

Exactly. And then they'll claim that the user has chosen not to see this data as a sign of progress, when in fact the corporation had chosen for him, or that not seeing the data increases his security (against himself apparently).

[sandrap13]

sandrap13 last edited by

We are talking about Opera 18 here and it doesn't have QAB...

[l33t4opera]

l33t4opera last edited by

With all due respect, but on the contrary, it has QAB, but it's disabled by default, because this feature is still in continuous phase of development.
Nevertheless, you can already use it, just click above link, to find out how to enable it.

[Deleted User]

Deleted User last edited by

Originally posted by Frenzie:

Originally posted by Krake:

If you try to see it from the perspective of a contractor, there is a big advantage which you already mentioned

I'm not sure who the contractor is, but how do they profit from that?

I'm not pretending to know how the business works, but there is a business that works. It's called pay-per-click and earn-per-click. There are two kinds of agents on the internet. Some agents, the majority, like you and I, pay for the traffic that we "consume" whereas the others get paid for the traffic that they "generate". The different words "consume" and "generate" here refer to the exact same activity, but when you are a "consumer" you must pay for doing it, whereas the agents on earn-per-click programs earn for the number of users they have and the amount of traffic that they "generate".

This is a business that works. I'm not pretending to understand it, but we both know well enough that the business is there.

It's related to file formats somewhat this way: The less the user can keep track of the alterations in the files and programs on the system, the more licence the author of the program has to alter stuff (this incidentally applies also to the malware and spyware exploiting the program). Let's say the user can e.g. read the logs or modify bookmarks and configs ONLY from the interface provided by the author, because the corresponding profile files are unreadable and not easily modifiable. With no control over what goes on in the backend, there is an obvious chance for the program to beacon the changes to the author or whomever. To "ring home" as they say. When authors can do this with impunity, they will make the program ring home regularly, independent of user activity. So, authors can be just another case of spyware, and they can earn on it as internet traffic generators.

This is not a conspiracy theory nor an accusation against any author or company. It has actually been rather normal in internet software all along. Some authors may do it because they simply like spying, but some do it because it pays. We know the Opera browser well enough. At first it was shareware only. Then it was adware. Adware is a legalised moderate case of spyware. It rings home. If the ringing is specifically restricted, impersonalised, documented, and the user is appropriately informed (which was the case with Opera adware), then it's okay (legal at least). Adware is a case of earn-per-click. We Opera veterans have permitted ourselves to be used this way by this company and its software. It's still in the limits of some reason, because the software was fun and useful. The benefit was mutual.

But lately things have turned. The company has pushed unwanted updates and alterations on people on a number of occasions this year:

- Mobile v.14 (Chromium) on top of Mobile v.12 (Presto)
- Reappearing Google search engine beginning probably at v.12.15 on desktop http://my.opera.com/community/forums/topic.dml?id=1648442
- Opera Mini Smartpage http://my.opera.com/community/forums/topic.dml?id=1755772
- Google search field in Opera Blink that was removable, but then patched in later version to prevent users from removing it http://my.opera.com/desktopteam/blog/show.dml/86356712#comment111639102

What can we conclude based on this list? Is it malware/spyware/adware or not? Or is it seemingly moving in that direction, but will never get there?

[governator]

governator last edited by

I've been a dedicated Opera user for 13 years since Version 5 (with the bloated shareware ad & ICQ). I've supported and backed every move and every year I've had people tell me I'm completely insane to continue using it.

I understand moving to the Blink engine (somewhat) and I'm especially grateful for having a separate email client now which quickly imported my 70,000 emails. But I'll never understand releasing a browser that doesn't cater to the vast majority of its users, the veteran Opera users. Relying on 3rd party extensions for bookmark importing and offering a less than ideal product out of box than any competitor is a major step back. Opera is (was) the inventor, the guinea pig we can rely on for new features, options and ideas that competitors can only copy.

This could have been avoided by just releasing this as an Opera 'Lite' version while continuing with Presto until a proper browser was ready for public release. I'm disappointed, but thanks for the email client, that's all I need to move on for now with Chrome until you get it sorted out.

[Deleted User]

Deleted User last edited by

Originally posted by ersi:

The company has pushed unwanted updates and alterations on people on a number of occasions this year:

- Mobile v.14 (Chromium) on top of Mobile v.12 (Presto)
- Reappearing Google search engine beginning probably at v.12.15 on desktop http://my.opera.com/community/forums/topic.dml?id=1648442
- Opera Mini Smartpage http://my.opera.com/community/forums/topic.dml?id=1755772
- Google search field in Opera Blink that was removable, but then patched in later version to prevent users from removing it http://my.opera.com/desktopteam/blog/show.dml/86356712#comment111639102

What can we conclude based on this list? Is it malware/spyware/adware or not? Or is it seemingly moving in that direction, but will never get there?

One more case to add to the list. Opera is using Chrome's tacks to sneak into people's computers http://my.opera.com/community/forums/findpost.pl?id=14997322

Originally posted by bcbear86:

I found out that when Java was updated, it had an option to install Opera and she didn't uncheck the box.

Quo vadis, Opera? Bejeezus...

[frenzie]

frenzie last edited by

Originally posted by ersi:

- Mobile v.14 (Chromium) on top of Mobile v.12 (Presto)

Trust me, I know.

Originally posted by ersi:

- Opera Mini Smartpage http://my.opera.com/community/forums/topic.dml?id=1755772

Wait, what? I occasionally use Opera Mini when I'm not on wifi and I have something of direct importance for me (e.g. bus/tram times). Some stupid "SmartPage" would probably use more than 10 times as much data as the one bookmarked page I check with images disabled. Ugh, that's awful.

Originally posted by ersi:

Originally posted by bcbear86:

I found out that when Java was updated, it had an option to install Opera and she didn't uncheck the box.

Quo vadis, Opera? Bejeezus...

I guess I can simply c/p what I said about Google:

http://my.opera.com/chooseopera/blog/show.dml/110522522?startidx=1100#comment113732752

Originally posted by Frenzie:

Besides a quick check whether you're indeed upgrading Flash and not some malware, who expects an update to install a new browser or some other piece of unrelated software? On top of which, there isn't always a checkbox either. Software companies tend to "forget" that, especially if you set it to update automatically. As if you automatically want to install other crap on your computer.

And if Google is offering money for such practices, why shouldn't one blame Google? Last I checked the person who pays a hitman also goes down for murder.

Quo vadis? I think I'll go straight for Et tu, Opera?