The impending demise of Opera?

lem729

lem729

Innovations that distinguish -- Folders in a Speed Dial, Stash, Discover. Off-Road. Maybe you Don't like them, but others do, and they jump right out at you from the user interface. In the Ipad, there's Coast, a very innovative browser. There are things I prefer with Opera Browser for Android, but the interface of Coast is aesthetically very pleasing,. I think Opera still very much innovates. Go by its history, and give it time.

eyzndasky

eyzndasky

@haavard

Opera's financial results are open to anyone since it's a publicly traded company. Take a look at the investor information linked at the bottom of this page. Opera is not struggling financially, and the new Opera for desktop is growing nicely.

I didn't mean that Opera was struggling financially but that the browser is limping along, trying to become a legitimate entity instead of merely an inferior Chrome clone. As I said before... "Opera as we knew it is dead and the new Opera will struggle on for a few months but within 24 months will be absorbed by the Google team."

lem729

lem729

And there will be an American space colony on a planet circling Alpha Century in the next five years. ;)))))))))

A Former User

FWIW, the downturn that recent 15 and up critics have pointed to sounds pretty bad--a 7% loss in desktop users from Q4 2012. This has been bandied about as a response to O15 and the Blink engine. But this was a continuation of a decline that goes back to Q4 2011. 2011 saw an increase of desktop users over Q4 2010, but from Q4 2011 through Q4 2012, there was a 4% decline (followed by that 7% decline, from Q4 2012 through Q4 2013). And so the decline in desktop browser users starts from even before Opera 12 was released (assuming the decline started in the beginning of 2012). At any rate, with Opera 12 being released in mid-2012, it is an incredibly selective use of data to say that O15 caused the decline in desktop users, as O15 wasn't released until July 2013.

And, as someone who has used Chrome quite a bit since its release, I have to say that I'm looking forward to Opera's development and transition to Blink. I always told myself that if a browser vendor would ever market a version of Chrome, but support it (no, Google Groups don't count as support), like Opera has here with this user community, I'd switch. So I look forward to seeing this decline reversed, and seeing bigger and better things from Opera.

pjk0

pjk0

I love all these people who talk about being "longtime Opera users"... from version 8. :rotfl:

How about version 3, or earlier? That's me.

I have ALWAYS used Opera because it had unique and highly-configurable functionality that no other browser had, and instead of trying to push proprietary rendering quirks on the world by forcing it down people's throats en-masse with an OS (hello Microsoft, Apple) or via some other vast influential ecosystem (hello Google), it tried to maintain compatibility with INTERNET STANDARDS... you know, W3C / Tim Berners-Lee style. One of the top Opera staff was the INVENTOR of CSS, and so on. So yeah, Opera always had great CSS compatibility.

And Opera always took security much more seriously than most of their competitors, and that has always been important to me. With the advent of "Heartbleed", we can see just how important it is to fail to take these things seriously. Theo de Raadt has said that the OpenSSL team is irresponsible, and as much of a crank as I think he is a lot of the time, I think he is probably quite right about that this time. Now a bunch of Canadians have had their confidential income and tax information stolen from the national Canadian tax agency because they too relied on 'freebie' OpenSSL for citizen access to their confidential national tax accounts, and without any further testing or protections, apparently. (Hello two-factor authentication. SMDH.)

And I can actually understand how wearying it must have gotten to be for Opera after all these years, like Sisyphus pushing the rock uphill for all eternity, fighting the puritanical "standards war" when the vast majority of the web and the browser vendors laugh at such things, and when it comes right down to it "money talks" and those with the money and influence will always set the DE-FACTO web standard.

So I actually don't blame them for giving up on Presto and Carakan, they got tired of always being called-out for making webpages look "wrong". "Wrong" of course only in comparison to the idiosyncracies of the currently popular browser-du-jour. And Google surely has vastly more engineering resources they can throw at optimizing a javascript engine compared to Opera, and that means a lot when it comes to maintaining state-of-the-art performance. I get that.

But Presto and Carakan are just a rendering engine and javascript engine. Those things (correct me if I'm wrong) have little or nothing to do with the UI of the browser itself.

Yet when Opera went to Opera Next, they abandoned a MASSIVE amount of UI features that made Opera much much better than ANY of the competition.

Bookmarks comes to mind first - I have a MASSIVE amount of bookmarks, and Opera went from the ABSOLUTE KING of bookmark functionality to the ABSOLUTE WORST - even worse than Internet Explorer, if that can be imagined.

Worse yet, they utterly bungled the transition. I had Opera for Android on my Android tablet, and made the mistake one day of "upgrading" Opera. Opera did not make it clear in their app description that the "upgrade" was a completely different, utterly stripped-down thing that bore almost NO resemblance to the app that "preceded" it. And when I made the mistake of installing it, not only did it NOT IMPORT ANY OF MY BOOKMARKS OR SETTINGS OR HISTORY, when I tried to re-install what they have later started referring-to as "Opera Classic" - ALL MY PREVIOUS BOOKMARKS AND SETTINGS WERE GONE - ERASED.

ARGGGHGHHHH!!

I don't want to write War and Peace here and thus will not go further into all the other missing functionality, but suffice to say I am heartbroken to admit I will have to abandon Opera on all platforms (I've used it on Windows, Linux, Mac, BlackBerry and Android), grit my teeth and learn to adapt to Firefox.

I will never use a Google browser because of their obnoxious privacy intrusions and because the day I saw how they had designed Chrome to circumvent typical organizational software restrictions by allowing people to install it into "user data folders" rather than normal application folders - something that really ticked me off as a system administrator responsible for maintaining the security of organizational and business computer systems - I vowed to never allow that virus on any system I have responsibility for.

Even Opera's former CEO has stated his disagreement with the direction the company is taking now with the browser.

That to me says it all. Truly a shame.

A Former User

But Presto and Carakan are just a rendering engine and javascript engine. Those things (correct me if I'm wrong) have little or nothing to do with the UI of the browser itself.
It's said that their old UI toolkit called "Quick" is completely dependent on Presto so it's incompatible with Chromium.

Opera for Android (...) did it NOT IMPORT ANY OF MY BOOKMARKS OR SETTINGS OR HISTORY
That didn't happen for me. It kept my data without problems.
It dropped all the bookmarks from the folders to a single Speed Dial folder which you'd have to reorganize manually though, which was and still is a terrible experience.

the day I saw how they had designed Chrome to circumvent typical organizational software restrictions by allowing people to install it into "user data folders" rather than normal application folders - something that really ticked me off as a system administrator responsible for maintaining the security of organizational and business computer systems - I vowed to never allow that virus on any system I have responsibility for.
So what do you have to say about Opera "standalone" install option and the USB/Portable versions?

beastie1

beastie1

It's said that their old UI toolkit called "Quick" is completely dependent on Presto so it's incompatible with Chromium.
That doesn't mean they can't reimplement the interface, which they obviously chose not to do.

Right now, Qt5/WebKit-based Otter Browser (still in alpha stage) looks more like old Opera than the new Opera after 5 major versions. And it's a 1-man hobby project.

By the time Otter is a year old (like new Opera next month) it will surely have more than half the features of old Opera.

Months ago I couldn't see any difference between new Opera and the oldest releases of Chrome. I still can't see any difference.

Nowadays I only visit these forums and the blogs for educational/entertainment purposes, especially now that they have dropped support for FreeBSD and it's become a dead end anyway.

A Former User

That doesn't mean they can't reimplement the interface, which they obviously chose not to do.
Right now, Qt5/WebKit-based Otter Browser (still in alpha stage) looks more like old Opera than the new Opera after 5 major versions. And it's a 1-man hobby project.
You're right, but it's not Chromium-based and that implies many differences on how the development of the browser is made and how it performs in use (standards, speed, etc).

Months ago I couldn't see any difference between new Opera and the oldest releases of Chrome. I still can't see any difference.
I can and I bet you can too.

elvennoia

elvennoia

My O12.16 layout as follows: tabs at the bottom above the windows taskbar, panel on my left extruding enough just for the icons such as notes, downloads, and bookmarks for quick actions. pop-up progress bar at the bottom above the tabs (i consider it the best indication for internet speed, just refresh and you know the speed of your internet at that given time.). Within my tab bar, at the very corner right, page zoom scale, opera link, and opera turbo. just after the browser tab before open new tab icon, theres closed tabs for quick trace back. search engine bar at the top replaced by extension that i use for work and leasure such as, translate, livestreams. This setting is just several changes that are essential part of my browsing experience.

So, to have the latest and upcoming Opera changing or closely becoming more like 12.16 is like winning worldwide international lottery (There's no such lottery.... not happening)...

I came here because i just found out there's no "open" context menu, so technically i have to open on new tab, close the previous tab and rinse repeat to all those sites that do so. good!!!

nightmaresoul

nightmaresoul

I have been with Opera for....a long time I would like to be able to be specific, but alas I know it was before Windows Vista existed, but little remains in my memory of that point. I Have forced friends and family to download it and use it. Because frankly I loved each version of up through Opera 12.16. As a browser it was unparalleled in ability and customization. Extensions could in fact be helpful in 12.16 but were not necessary to use it. I have opera 20 installed as well as Opera 12.16 still, yet I touch 20 very little. Things that I would love to see Opera do which I know they can do.

1.Bring back the ability to have a menu bar if a user wants it.
1 a.Bookmarks bring them back.
2.Bring back Content Blocker.
3.Allow customization of the browser, sure the out of the box slick look could be native.
4.Be OPERA, Not Google, and Not Microsoft. Opera has been, up till the travesty that was 15 to present, the best browser on the market.
5.Focus on being functional over pretty, if you give the users the ability and they will make it pretty.
6.You want to know what customizations people want added look at the extensions being made for the current travesty, and anything that is outside of what was in 12.16 might be worth looking into as an extension.
7.Remember your community loves you and wants you to succeed.

So as someone who has been with Opera through many long years, I ask you Opera come back to your users.

lem729

lem729

nightmaresoul, I'm confused on your making the bookmarks issue your first priority (in your list). Opera has the ability for bookmarks in the personal bookmarks toolbar, and the speed dial, where with folders you can put tons and tons of stuff. It's incredible what you can do with those folders. It has Stash too. And finally some very reasonable bookmarks manager extensions in the Opera and Chrome stores. That is not just plenty. It's an abundance of riches I don't understand this complaining about bookmarks, other than the importing issue (it's a bit confusing how to move from other browsers to Opera and preserve bookmarks Opera would be smart to: (1) make simplifying the process of moving bookmarks from another browser (Chrome, IE, Firefox, etc.) a top priority), and (2) syncing Opera blink bookmarks and other essential parts of one's profile to the cloud. This would obviate the need for those concerned to constantly be saving one's profile.

On bringing back the content blocker (by which I assume you mean the ad blocker), well, why? I'm using for extensions from the Opera store (1) Adblock plus and (2) Discover, and the ads don't have a chance. Discover adds to the ad-blocking capability of adblock plus. Together, it's like calling in a top flight exterminator and pity the poor ad-roaches.

I have no problem with the other comments. I just think there are two schools of thought here, reflective of those who love the New Opera, and the Power users who don't. I don't want Opera slowed down with all that extra stuff. I prefer Opera "fast, mean and lean." The other features, if they come via extension, can slow down -- smile -- the browser of those who want them. And yes, improve the customization of those who want them. Everything has its costs. Usually, there is no free ride. And certainly not in a free browser.

I think Opera (and call me an optimist, if you will . . .) will find a unique place, distinguishing it from Chrome, and fill a need. It will present a better, more innovative browser than Chrome (with whom it shares the blink engine). It already has the Speed Dial (with folders), Stash, Discover, Off Road mode, which do some of that distinguishing.

lem729

lem729

I made a mistake in the post above. I'm using for adblockers: (1) AdBlock plus, and (2) Disconnect [not Discover] both available in the Opera store, and as I note above, they work in tandem really well.

nightmaresoul

nightmaresoul

Lem729, I apologize the preview kinda garbled my list.

1.Bring back the ability to have a menu bar if a user wants it.

 1a.Bookmarks bring them back.

2.Bring back Content Blocker.

3.Allow customization of the browser, sure the out of the box slick look could be native.

4.Be OPERA, Not Google, and Not Microsoft. Opera has been, up till the travesty that was 15 to present, the best browser on the market.

5.Focus on being functional over pretty, if you give the users the ability and they will make it pretty.

6.You want to know what customizations people want added look at the extensions being made for the current travesty, and anything that is outside of what was in 12.16 might be worth looking into as an extension.

7.Remember your community loves you and wants you to succeed.

As for the bookmarks I have a few seperate extensions hooked into 20 presently to allow me to import my bookmarks so far they make using them far less efficient or useful. The bookmarks tool-bar however well how to explain the problem with that. The Tool-bar would be inadequate for the 1500 sites I have bookmarked and organized. As for the new pimped out Speed dial that I admit I was not aware of and may have to take a look as to how its managed to see if it can be a viable alternative.

As for the Content Blocker it worked as an adblocker but it allowed the disabling of advertisements or unwelcome content on any page from any server and also prevented malware from being uploaded into the temp files. I have tried a variety of adblockers and most of the ones I have tried lack the power & control of the content blocker.

As for me I am an old power user who likes the power and abilities of 12.16, I doubt that Opera could not engineer Opera 12.16's abilities into the Chromium and Blink systems, but that it may take time, and I am hopeful that they will.

lem729

lem729

I agree -- from what I've read in the forum here -- that, as I previously noted, the importing of bookmarks from other browsers definitely needs work. You could easily put your 100 most common/used sites -- maybe more -- on the speed dial. The key is to break up the speed dial into categories. A folder with a lot of links for each category. (I assume you know how to create the speed dial folder -- by dragging one speed dial site on top of another. Please realize that since you have 1500 bookmarks, I can't speak as easily to the issue, because I don't have near that number. I can imagine, but cannot fully appreciate your problem. I use the extension Tidy Bookmarks in Chrome. Now with that bookmarks manager, you can put folders within folders, so if your 1500 bookmarks fit in a discrete number of initial folders -- let's say 40 -- and then you had new categories (folders) within each folder-- (and then more folders in them) you might be able to organize something with it. What I'm wondering is what you are asking for in a bookmark manager. Let's take a look at the Tidy Bookmarks extension for a moment. You can have a long vertical display of items or folders, you can create folders within folders (and I'm assuming, go deeper than that -- folders within the folders within the folders, etc.) So you can organize a lot with it. And you can set it up alphabetically. It may not be perfect, but what features beyond what I have just described for the Tidy Bookmarks extension were there in the Opera Bookmarks manager that you need so badly. Sometimes, the problem is more adjusting to change -- and you could manage -- if you put a bit of energy into it. Although, I must admit -- smile -- 1500 bookmarks is a lot.

Now I haven't explored the other bookmarks manager extensions (since Tidy Bookmarks meets my immediate need), so I don't know if they are better or worse. There may well be better bookmark managers in the Opera or Chrome store (for extensions).

On your Content Blocker issue, did you explore AdBlock Plus AND Disconnect. Those are two separate extensions, available in the Opera extension store. When I use them together, the effect is quite a bit stronger than just AdBlock plus.

Good luck!

nightmaresoul

nightmaresoul

Well Topical Folders on 12.16 I have set into 9 main folders with sub-folders underneath them and then of course some free floating radicals outside the folders above and below. So that might be a viable alternative at least for leisurely hunting . Although Somehow I see that slowing down the Speed dials preview system massively. As for the applications from 12.16 that are needed sounds like a vast majority are in Tidy, although renaming and re-description of sites, Alphabetically works for me although 12.16 also had arrange by date added, visited, description, address, nick name or your own set order, as well it also had the addition of separators to help define if you will sub sections in a long list that were not numerous enough for their own to merit a folder. It was also included in the browser not as an addition.

I have not tried adblock Plus and disconnect but I may load them in just to see how they work out.

lem729

lem729

On Extensions, Tidy Bookmarks is not as good as What Opera had, but -- being positive here -- the extensions could well get better. Tidy Bookmarks is, at least, reasonable. I haven't tried all of the extensions for a bookmark manager. Some may have more than Tidy Bookmarks in terms of arranging the order.

You might want to check out the FAQ on the Disconnect Website. They seem to be doing quite a lot that is positive in terms of privacy. And definitely, Disconnect with Adblock Plus is quite a duo.

Also the extension Disconnect Search (in the Chrome store) is really good. That is separate from the Disconnect extension that I have mentioned to you in connect with adblocking.

nightmaresoul

nightmaresoul

Also it seems Tidy Bookmarks not available in Operas extension list on site unless your looking for it in Spanish o.O. Anyhow I hope that Opera will re-invigorate some of the beauty and majesty they had in 12.16 into Opera 21.

lem729

lem729

It's in the Chrome Store. Tidy Bookmarks for Chrome.

https://chrome.google.com/webstore/search/Tidy Bookmarks?hl=en-US

[It was once in the Opera store. For some reason it's not there in the Opera store] I assume you know how to get the Chrome Extension. All you need is the Opera Extension, "Download Chrome Extension" to get it.

Keep in mind that some features of Opera 20 are better than ever was in Opera 12.16. And then there are a number of memorable features in Opera 12.16, which may be, as Thomas Wolfe once said: "lost and by the wind grieved."

But "beauty and majesty" are important. I am with you there . . . And one can always improve on things. Even if by extension!!!!

Deleted User

Deleted User

Let's see if I can add anything of value:

First, I agree with most of the sentiment of the OP.

To specify:

searching for addons is a pain. Opera is not my hobby. Main reason I always stayed away from Firefox (apart from the ugliness). For me, this is true for every game and application. Technically, addon systems are brilliant and beautiful. From a user experience perspective, "DEFAULTS MATTER".
user control is important. Main point: In Opera 12.16 I can turn off Javascript at will to download images from the web. Or copy text. Don't mess with me with javascript content blockers. I will rip your copyrighted material from your bloody chest :p.
mouse gestures are pretty useful.
the persistent tab management of Opera 12 is brilliant although tab grouping didn't seem to work very well. I would never use anything other than Opera 12 for persistent sessions, although the Stash feature seems useful to me.
I like custom search fields. I never memorized custom search keys (apart from "g" for Google) but I added custom search fields for a few dictionaries. The interface to do this was very unfriendly. I'm sure very few people ever did it. A regular user cannot analyse a web page to discern the search query used by some form.

Now to me the most important thing:

/Chrome style tabs are not useful to me for creating and maintaining any form of persistent session. Chrome tabs are expendable. I do not invest any thought in them and I don't care whether I lose them or not. This is fine for casual browsing (on my netbook I do not use Opera 12) but any serious user will require better session support. Most people are not serious users. Most people are casual browsers. Most people are not trying to get real work done on a computer. Something that requires a better tool./

The second most important thing:

/I need my tabs to be at the bottom of the screen. There is a reason every single operating system puts context-switching elements (the task bar) at the bottom or left side of the screen. Tab switching is also context-switching. So we are talking about a feature that gets split in two for no apparent reason. A computer user is always looking more at the bottom than the top. For instance, my cursor is currently at the bottom of this text. Western people write from left-to-right and from top-to-bottom. We're always moving down, not up.

Chrome "tabs at the top" makes sense because it delineates (provides an edge) to the body of the window, as there are very few other elements (only an address bar with some controls). My Opera 12 contains an empty title bar at the top. A waste of screen real estate, perhaps. And the new Opera definitely looks pretty. But it doesn't look efficient. It doesn't look powerful. It doesn't look like I will have a great time working with it./

The point about Ctrl-Tab is characteristic. Ctrl-Tab sequentially cycling through tabs is indeed, completely useless.

==============

Anyway I can go on and on. The point is that the old Opera was a Power Mac and the new Opera is a Mac Mini.

And this "Mac Mini" is at least thrice as fast as Chrome on this netbook. Using this netbook is suddenly a pleasant experience. I thought Chrome would be a fast browser. New Opera is way faster.

Only thing I want to say:

I think using bookmarks is a thing of the past. I think Stash is a good idea. I think Stash could be even better than persistent tabs. These days I even use Google search to open links I have bookmarks of. So I don't know about that. Bookmark management has always been a chore. Perhaps one day I will write a non-centralized, user controlled version of Delicious. I believe bookmarks should be something managed not by a browser, but by something else. Something that is also shared among devices. If I ever take up programming again, I am going to work on that.

My vision for the future is localized platforms that are globally developed. The software will be universal and free, but the material foundation (actual systems) will be run as autonomous entities interfacing with other autonomous entities.

So far, so long.

Deleted User

Deleted User

Oh, great, this forum doesn't even work well with the New Opera :p.

My whitelines are not preserved, and I cannot edit my post.