What is wrong with Opera?
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horscht86 last edited by
I wouldn't say anybody loses me. And by the way, what would they lose? Did I pay any money? Am I gonna to?Your Data
Unfortunate comment... What data? Opera doesn't collect any meaningful data.
http://www.opera.com/privacy
A correct answer is they lose you in the users count so the revenue from partners that pay to become default search engines and Speed Dial entries would be lower as they'd consider Opera less worthy.While I edited this already (previous to your reply, mind you), that's actually straying from the point I was trying to make.
I was merely pointing out in (what I feel to be was) a constructive manner what I do not like about the current state of the Opera browser and what is needed for it to be improved.Since there's practically no useful communication from Opera to its users (apart from the obligatory "soon" or "we're working to bring <feature> in an upcoming releas") I just felt that I needed to somehow try and bring my concerns to a place were at least someone from Opera might stumble upon.
To re-itterate:
I am no complaining about the presto rendering engine being gone. In fact, I "don't care" (tm, patent pending) about the rendering engine being used, I care about usability.
Privacy, monetization questions are also not what I am concerned about.
I am concerned about Opera leaving it's old userbase in the dust with a 14 month old, broken browser and simplyfiying (sp?) their new release so much that their old userbase can or will not use it while trying to acquire a new userbase that is already content with other browsers (IE, Chrome, Firefox, Safari to name the big 4), all of which offer the same or even more features and one of which is basically the same browser, only that opera crosses out the name "Chrome" and writes "Opera" in in crayon and removes a few features along the way. They can't really compete with that.
So unless Opera gets its act together and tries to win back their old userbase (most of which are still using Opera 12.17), more and more of them will finally be forced to abandon Opera and Operas new userbase will be considerably smaller up to the point they can't sustain their business model anymore.
</rant>
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blackbird71 last edited by...
People want to be able to customize their browser to fit their needs.
I think peolpe nowadays wants simplicity more than any other thing.
The problem is that both kinds of people actually exist... and they don't see eye to eye on this. Those wanting customizability argue that such customization controls can be made included, but made optional for those wanting simplicity. Those wanting simplicity argue that adding the configuration controls detracts the designers from doing other things. I'm not sure this debate will ever be resolved, at least in principle.
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prometheus-za last edited by
And talking about bookmarks, i think that it's more than the time to get rid of that 1990's bookmarking style and move something more dynamic.
And what would that be oh great one? Bookmarks have been with us for over two decades because they simply work. They don't clutter up the user space but are there when you need them. Nobody has been able to come up with a better solution. Ironic that the people arguing for simplicity now want to introduce even more complex solutions proving that even they can't go without the features and customisation of the old Opera.
I can't believe some are still so blind to the obvious issues, or perhaps just choose to be in order not to admit fault. Anybody still claiming that the new chrome clone is a good browser or on the right track is seriously out of touch with reality. It can't even get the basic functions right.
Open more than 20 tabs and it keeps crashing some of them or even the whole browser. I understand multi-threading but it doesn't inherently make your app more stable and you don't need to literally create a whole separate process for each tab to use it. That is flawed design and it's just the tip of the iceberg. Other issue are:
- The new design completely removes the title bar so web page titles have to be viewed from the taskbar.
- Opening it non maximised leaves an ugly fat window border no matter if border padding is set to 0 like mine or to something humongous. It doesn't respect system settings like even a basic "hello world" program does.
- It gets even worse. There's no option to right click open in the current tab meaning you either have to invoke the on-click javascript or open in a new (background by default) tab. The old Opera had all 3 options.
- Opening an image in the current tab is no longer there. Only the option to open in a new (again background by default) tab. So you have to manually close the parent tab same as with above.
- Speaking of images it seems to act like they don't exist or are unimportant. A lot of them don't render and there's no option to reload them by right clicking. So much for the sophisticated rendering engine that for me have also failed where the old Opera's simply works.
- And on the subject of tabs, besides that they open in the background so you have to manually navigate to them, there appears to be no consistent opening sequence. Some gets opened next to the active one while others get lined up next to it or even worse gets appended to the end. Probably why they removed the option to select this as they can't seem to get the behaviour right.
There's simply too many problems and inconsistencies to list. I called it an app before not by mistake but because that's exactly what it is. This is not the Opera browser, it's a port of a mobile app. All the telltale signs are there. Try telling anyone with a straight face they aren't. Yeah right...
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nin13 last edited by
I think its up to Opera developers path it wants to choose. But I will just say.
I have been using Opera for long time, almost a decade. And other options were there at that time too. I mean Firefox, IE and Safari.
But what made Opera unique was it included notes, manageable bookmarks (I mean u can make folder inside folder), feeds, torrent support and opera sync. Than they added Speed dial. So it made user have all features at one place.
Now what happens is they have a browser just like Chrome without all these features. Plus Chrome has addition support for Google account and apps on homepage.
OPERA IS LOSING ITS UNIQUENESS. By being similar to other browsers you will not get much.
Anyway Opera 24 and 25 could not even import html file of my bookmarks exported from Opera 12. Guess what Chrome did. It synced my html file. Now all bookmarks are saved on chrome
And feeds are there on 'feedly'. and notes on 'evernote'.Worst thing is there is no sync on Opera mobile and Opera mini for android either. They just open link to opera sync page.
Now Chrome can sync via google account to mobile and desktop and I don't have to remember Opera ID and password too.
Guess who lost?I still love opera, my first browser love.
Yes of course I can use Opera 12. I don't care about few millisecond difference made by browsers. But guess who is missing important security updates which are very important nowadays in era of Social media and Internet banking.
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linuxmint7 last edited by
Yes of course I can use Opera 12. I don't care about few millisecond difference made by browsers. But guess who is missing important security updates which are very important nowadays in era of Social media and Internet banking.
Not Opera 12.x, 12.17 was a security update that was released not too long ago (end of April if I remember correctly). And Opera ASA has mentioned that they may continue to release security updates (patches ?) if and when they are needed, possibly until they deem Opera (Blink) ready for prime time. By which time, they may offer Opera (Blink) as a direct update/upgrade for Opera (Presto).
But we shall have to wait and see.
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blackbird71 last edited by
... 12.17 was a security update that was released not too long ago (end of April if I remember correctly).
Your memory is correct: 4/23/14 was the release date for 12.17.
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prometheus-za last edited by
I think its up to Opera developers path it wants to choose. But I will just say.
It is. The main problem here is that their response so far has been neither here nor there, not saying that the features are gone for good but also not saying that they will eventually return. As users we deserve as much as a proper response at least.
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leocg Moderator Volunteer last edited by
And what would that be oh great one?
The full page index like in Opera Presto. Something that could release the user from the needing of sort the info everytime s/he wants to bookmark something.
Bookmarks have been with us for over two decades because they simply work
They may have been working for some people but not for me and not for lots of people.
Nobody has been able to come up with a better solution.
Maybe because people have never been able to deal with new approaches.
Btw, new generations bookmarks is called Google.
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blackbird71 last edited by
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Nobody has been able to come up with a better solution.
Maybe because people have never been able to deal with new approaches.
Btw, new generations bookmarks is called Google.I've been using search engines since the days of Lycos and WebCrawler, well before Google existed. One of the constants through the entire period has been the awkwardness of using a search engine to reacquire an obscure webpage of interest originally obtained by a user via whatever means. Without bookmarks, one is forced to resort to search engines that will bury the desired page many dozens or hundreds of listings deep in the search return. Alternatively, one is forced to use all manner of arcane search-term logical expressions to try to weed through the clutter of irrelevant returns, vainly trying to construct the thought/descriptive processes that might somehow more quickly pull up a relevant listing - but even then, having to plow through multiple entries before stumbling upon the correct one... perhaps.
With traditional bookmarking, editable bookmark titles, and some logical multi-level foldering in a bookmarks manager, one can file bookmarks by subject just like folders in a filing cabinet. Retrieval is simply by topic, nested into lower levels of detail, and since the bookmarks are all placed there by the user himself, they will all be relevant to his specific needs, thinking patterns. and titling preferences. Presto Opera had managed to create such bookmarking, and was one of the key reasons I adopted it some years ago.
This again highlights one of these foundational differences between users who use a browser casually and those who use it as a technical tool, browser configurability and customizability being the other primary areas of difference. To a technical user, bookmarking becomes almost an extension of his mind applied to web browsing and the intelligent, efficient retrieval of past-viewed sites of interest. Describing Google as a new-generation bookmarking mechanism is something I cannot conceive would ever come from a technical browser user.
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prometheus-za last edited by
And what would that be oh great one?
The full page index like in Opera Presto. Something that could release the user from the needing of sort the info everytime s/he wants to bookmark something.
Iow something that clutters up the user space and far from not needing to be sorted actually being uncustomisable and of limited use.
Bookmarks have been with us for over two decades because they simply work
They may have been working for some people but not for me and not for lots of people.
Weasel words. Granted there may be the occasional email only user or the person only using their browser once a month but even most of the non power users have found bookmarks to be helpful at some point. There's no denying that for those who need and use them they DO work.
Nobody has been able to come up with a better solution.
Maybe because people have never been able to deal with new approaches.
Btw, new generations bookmarks is called Google.What blackbird says. Google or any search engine for that matter can never be a replacement for bookmarks. Problem with new approaches is that some "brightspark" always tries to force something unwanted and cumbersome in place of something that's always been a necessity. New isn't always better you know.
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Deleted User last edited by
Google [or Bing?] as New Age Bookmarks? Brilliant. Never thought the Browser Wars of Old would become the Civil War of Opera...When the solution is SO easy! 12.17 as default browser, '24' secondary....Use 'em BOTH, already...
Giz
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leocg Moderator Volunteer last edited by
Iow something that clutters up the user space and far from not needing to be sorted actually being uncustomisable and of limited use.
Well, space shouldn't be a problem nowadays as computers usually come with lots of space.
Anyway, it doesn't need to index all the pages, it could index only the pages that the user wants.
Another alternative would be the use of a(n) (automatic) tag system.
ranted there may be the occasional email only user or the person only using their browser once a month but even most of the non power users have found bookmarks to be helpful at some point. There's no denying that for those who need and use them they DO work.
As i said, it may work for some but it doesn't work for others. It's 50/50.
On a classic bookmark system the person needs to decide if that page should be bookmarked or not then choose where to bookmark it - depending on how the person sort their bookmarks, a page can be bookmarked on various (sub)folders. After or while doing it, the person changes the bookmark/page title to makes it easier to be find.
Too much work for me. I would like to be able to type something on the address bar and get a list of pages in which those words appears, including a "preview" of the text. Like in Opera Presto.
Google or any search engine for that matter can never be a replacement for bookmarks.
Maybe but people nowadays use them more and more to go to pages and to find (already viewed) pages. People search even for urls they already know.
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blackbird71 last edited by
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On a classic bookmark system the person needs to decide if that page should be bookmarked or not then choose where to bookmark it - depending on how the person sort their bookmarks, a page can be bookmarked on various (sub)folders. After or while doing it, the person changes the bookmark/page title to makes it easier to be find.
Too much work for me. I would like to be able to type something on the address bar and get a list of pages in which those words appears, including a "preview" of the text. Like in Opera Presto.Google or any search engine for that matter can never be a replacement for bookmarks.
Maybe but people nowadays use them more and more to go to pages and to find (already viewed) pages. People search even for urls they already know.
And what if the page is one of perhaps 80+ very similar pages that each carries a different weather-satellite image but has no uniquely searchable page text? And indeed there are many such examples: http://www.ssec.wisc.edu/data/geo/index.php?satellite=mtsat&channel=wv&coverage=fd&file=jpg&imgoranim=8&anim_method=flash being just one. By applying a unique, short custom-bookmark title (eg: WVLwp) in a well-designed, bookmarkable browser (such as Opera 12.xx or FF), I can add it to my sub-foldered bookmark system for rapid future reference should I need to view that coverage area (eg: Satellite Images > WaterVapor > WVLwp which corresponds to the water-vapor loop for the Western Pacific basin). I may only need to view this image once every several weeks, or at other times I may need it several times a day. To try to locate and retrieve it via a search engine each time it's needed is absurd; to store all the hundreds of similar sites in Speed Dial is equally absurd, particularly if the folders can't be nested at multiple levels; to try searching the bookmarks via a browser address box is also absurd considering that there are no unique search terms on the page to distinguish it from the other 80 or so similar bookmarked satellite images (and after several weeks of disuse, who can remember even the exact custom title of the specific bookmark, let alone the arcane terminology in its URL?). With a well-constructed bookmark/folder system, I simply look for folders/subfolders titled "satellite images", then "water vapor" type of imagery, and finally select the region from the list of 15 others in that last subfolder. And, if I should need the site frequently for a while, I can simply copy the bookmark directly to my bookmark bar.
Is this what every user needs to do? Certainly not, and you appear to be one who doesn't have such a need. But those of us who do use a browser technically absolutely need an organizable, multi-layered way to retrieve particular bookmarks by subject out of a vast pool of similar (and sometimes "unsearchable") pages. And it is the loss of such outstanding capability in the redesigned Opera (thus far) that is one of the reasons for the intensity of user outcry among those of us who have come to rely heavily on such capability. As it now stands, only Firefox and Presto Opera still provide this capability natively... and with Presto slowly disintegrating, that really only leaves FF.
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horscht86 last edited by
And what if the page is one of perhaps 80+ very similar pages that each carries a different weather-satellite image but has no uniquely searchable page text?
Well, maybe a manual tag system.
while i do think tags are a nice addition and can simplify bookmarks for those people that have lesser needs for their browser they have one big issue for bookmarks that you dont use very often: having to actively remember stuff. In the case of seldom used sites (which you might have a few dozens of) that you only need to access every few weeks or even months you would have to actively recall what tags you might have used to categorize these pages. having a multiple layered folder structure allows you to see what you actually bookmarked, then access the folder you wish.
Tags might be able to replace bookmarks for some users and if that's the case for you you can simply not bother with the bookmark structure at all and solely rely on the tags you enter when bookmarking a page. But the majority only use them as an enhancement, for quite a big number of people (including me) they can't replace structured bookmarks alltogether.
What some people don't seem to realize is that their use-case is not everyone elses use-case and other people might have a different workflow. Just because a change in a feature doesn't affect you doesn't mean it's not a bad change. Just because i never used mouse gestures - and still don't - doesn't mean i can simply deny the fact that removing mouse gestures (are they back?) was a bad choice and should be reverted immediatly. A few of the "defenders" (sorry for the bad wording here, i could not think of a less extreme description) appear to do this with a certain degree of fanboyism (again, as a person whos first language isn't english i can't seem to find a more appropriate term here) denying them the cappability to see when their application/product of choice (in this case a brwoser) takes steps into the wrong direction.
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prometheus-za last edited by
Iow something that clutters up the user space and far from not needing to be sorted actually being uncustomisable and of limited use.
Well, space shouldn't be a problem nowadays as computers usually come with lots of space.
Anyway, it doesn't need to index all the pages, it could index only the pages that the user wants.
Another alternative would be the use of a(n) (automatic) tag system.Harddrives come with lots of storage space. Screens don't come with lots of viewing space. You know I wasn't referring to the former. How is it going to index only the pages the user wants? Oh yes! BOOKMARKS!
ranted there may be the occasional email only user or the person only using their browser once a month but even most of the non power users have found bookmarks to be helpful at some point. There's no denying that for those who need and use them they DO work.
As i said, it may work for some but it doesn't work for others. It's 50/50.
On a classic bookmark system the person needs to decide if that page should be bookmarked or not then choose where to bookmark it - depending on how the person sort their bookmarks, a page can be bookmarked on various (sub)folders. After or while doing it, the person changes the bookmark/page title to makes it easier to be find.
Too much work for me. I would like to be able to type something on the address bar and get a list of pages in which those words appears, including a "preview" of the text. Like in Opera Presto.You know it's not 50/50. Come on be honest for once. So bookmarks is too much work for you but you can't assume the majority don't use them when they in fact do. Again what better system do you have that provides all the functions? An index only works if it's still cached. And it doesn't solve the problem of being no better than google in pointing out the correct page but instead a load of irrelevant garbage.
Google or any search engine for that matter can never be a replacement for bookmarks.
Maybe but people nowadays use them more and more to go to pages and to find (already viewed) pages. People search even for urls they already know.
Not an argument for replacing bookmarks.
And what if the page is one of perhaps 80+ very similar pages that each carries a different weather-satellite image but has no uniquely searchable page text?
Well, maybe a manual tag system.
Which we then call bookmarks. A hundred internets to you for reinventing the wheel just out of stubborness not to remove it.
