Search Engine Default

[Deleted User]

Deleted User last edited by

Accept the fact that discussing about search engines won't change the browser. Lem729 has good arguments and I post some too. You say Opera doesn't give freedom to the users, you limit your own freedom because you are kinda of afraid of saving passwords (I know, person choice, keep with that if you want, I will never make anyone to do what do not want to do), use this or that search engine because of spy. I do nit feel forced to use Google search.

[stealth789]

stealth789 last edited by

Accept the fact that discussing about search engines won't change the browser.

If this is true, and discussing is useless, even this forum is useless. This is nonsense.

Lem729 has good arguments and I post some too.

Sure, some. But didn't answer many questions, and often used other themes to excuse or avoid answer. Still I tried to argument on everything. Not avoiding subject, like you do.

You say Opera doesn't give freedom to the users, you limit your own freedom because you are kinda of afraid of saving passwords (I know, person choice, keep with that if you want, I will never make anyone to do what do not want to do),

Off-topic: I limit? I use one software for many programs and any browser. One centralized system. It's not limiting. It's safer like in any browser, and centralized. Still my personal point, but really has nothing to do with limitation of anything.

use this or that search engine because of spy. I do nit feel forced to use Google search.

It's about be free to choose. Not be forced, without proper reason. You maybe don't feel forced, but me and many others do.

[Deleted User]

Deleted User last edited by

Let's just stop it, I said everything that I could do,ok.

[stealth789]

stealth789 last edited by

Sure maybe suggestion forum is best place. I hoped all communication will take place there. Because I'm kind of waiting for some internal answer, what is exact status and approach to this request. Something. Some conclusion.

Please don't take any of this personally. I have no intention to attack anybody. I'm just arguing about topic, and trying to make a stand here. Give reason to request. That's all.

[lem729]

lem729 last edited by

Stealth789

The password issue is not at all off topic. You raised it yourself. You said that you save no passwords in your computer so it is clear that you are much less at risk if there is search engine hijacking. You don't have passwords to lose. Those of us who do save passwords -- the vast majority of Opera users -- in their browser are very much at risk.

And so we want Opera to add search engines for us, only if Opera concludes that it is safe to do so, that they do not unduly expose us to a search engine hijacking, which puts our passwords at risk, our credit cards, our personal identities. Nothing more to say on this. Like sidneyneto, I feel this topic has been exhausted exhausted exhausted . ..

If you want to keep talking to yourself on this keep posting. I have nothing more to say, I think this thread and the one in the suggestion box should be closed.

[stealth789]

stealth789 last edited by

Stealth789
The password issue is not at all off topic. You raised it yourself. You said that you save no passwords in your computer so it is clear that you are less at risk if there is search engine hijacking. Ypu don't have passwords to lose. Those of us do not save passwords -- the vast majority of Opera users -- in their browser are very much at risk.

I don't mean total offtopic. But it's not main topic. It's maybe connected. But you use arguments about hijacking. Than in the first place, there's need for malware to get to PC. And it's not question of this topic, but about PC security, proper Avntivirus,... and protection. So also talking about malware is another topic. You cannot connect anything the way you want. Because your reasons are just like tell everybody don't connect to internet, because something bad can happen. It's not proper argumentation to this topic. It's just diversion of topic to another one.
Because there are many other settings, that can compromise user safety, but are allowed! So you can't tell this one is another in principle.

And I have passwords on my computer, just in another place.

And so we want Opera to add search engines for us, only if Opera concludes that it is safe to do so, that they do not unduly expose us to a search engine hijacking, which puts our passwords at risk, our credit cards, our personal identities. Nothing more to say on this. Like sidneyneto, I feel this topic has been exhausted exhausted exhausted . ..

I understand. But as I mentioned, also now Opera uses engines, that are not so secure. So I can't accept, that their decision is wholesome correct and secure. Also if I like software, it doesn't mean I will trust it blindly.

So you know this trust was broken when I find out about fraud check packets. Because I didn't realized until then, that opera will use something like this, that can in any way compromise my privacy. Without option to disable it, even without asking. This kind of behavior is unacceptable for any software.

Still this won't change fact, that if user want to use some specific engine, they can't. And you can't excuse this for security or anything, when there's not even will to find common stand, without proper reasons. In this position it's unfortunately looking only like forcing.

Still someone from Opera itself should give some standing here.

[Deleted User]

Deleted User last edited by

Sure maybe suggestion forum is best place. I hoped all communication will take place there. Because I'm kind of waiting for some internal answer, what is exact status and approach to this request. Something. Some conclusion.
Please don't take any of this personally. I have no intention to attack anybody. I'm just arguing about topic, and trying to make a stand here. Give reason to request. That's all.

No problem, I did not feel offended

[blackbird71]

blackbird71 last edited by

...
First: Topic is about allowing user to free choose default search engine. Talking about password is another theme! It's question of allover security of PC, not about changing of search engine itself. So please stick to the main question. But Opera won't allow me to freely change default search engine, but:

It's possible to change start page - possible malware use (but there's still need for malware to get to PC, ... that's real problem)
Is sending un-secure(some are secure, based on original request) every site I visit to its servers - Fraud check / Tracking ? (If not by Opera, than can be abused by ITS, ....)
Only 1 of 10 default engines uses secure connection !!! And that's Google known by tracking users - PRIVACY !

So please don't tell me your default search engines are safe! Hell they're not! So where's your security concern now? This way (you think is right for me, ....) I don't feel safe! And I feel forced!
If malware will get to your PC, it's question of PC security and user knowledge. Learn users to be secure, use Antivirus, Firewall, ... Don't use it as excuse to restrict our free choice. Disallow this is short-sighted policy. And start of forcing us to use what you decide is right for us. It's unacceptable. You are simplifying this as question of one more press. I see this also as question of freedom. Be free to choose what I want.
...

"Safe" covers a lot of things. Default search engine selection is just one fragment of 'safety', and it is one on which Opera happened to concentrate when fashioning the browser search functionality as it has. It is focused on protecting a user from hijacking of his search engine.

Things like changing start pages, fraud-checking (pro and con), security of given search engines, etc. are all elements of safety, indeed. But they are other elements of safety. As you said, this topic is about allowing users to freely choose their default search engines, and all those other 'safety' areas are outside the particular area of safety affected by controlling whether or not a default search engine can be customized.

"Safe hex", IMO, is the key to keeping a system free from malware, whether or not that involves using a particular security tool (AV, firewall, anti-executable, etc) or even several of them. But safe hex is simply a pattern of choices, and just as important as what sites one visits and what one clicks on, is the software one chooses to employ to do it... and in what the software designers have taken into consideration in terms of safety. If a browser is immune to search engine hijacking by some zero-day, drive-by-triggered exploit, it's one less thing a user has to be concerned with. For some users, this is important, for others not so much. If the user doesn't wish that built-in safety protection, he can choose to use a browser that doesn't provide it.

You're suggesting Opera provide a setting to allow a user to set a custom default search engine not already on Opera's default list... that's all well and good, and you've stated your case at length. But realize that a setting implies a mechanism to implement the setting, and that implies a browser architecture perhaps altered to support the mechanism. And all of that implies effort and resources to implement, debug, and test for security. Balance that against Opera's suggestion of a user simply prefixing his search with a single letter to call up an ordinary custom search engine, a path which costs no resources to implement, other than user convenience. I gave up coding some years ago, but in those days, responding to a meritorious safety-impacting suggestion that had an easy existing alternative received much less priority and attention than responding to one that represented a genuine crisis.

At the end of the day, Opera's browser currently 'is what it is'. You've offered and defended your suggestion, and it's been discussed and hopefully Opera will consider it. In the meantime, you have a choice: use Opera and its preset search engine defaults as-is, use an extension 'fix' with Opera, install a regular custom search engine and prefix your searches with a single letter, or use another browser that allows you to set your own custom default engine.

[lem729]

lem729 last edited by

@blackbird

You're quite an awesome resource. And your post does make much clearer the current situation.

[stealth789]

stealth789 last edited by

...
First: Topic is about allowing user to free choose default search engine. Talking about password is another theme! It's question of allover security of PC, not about changing of search engine itself. So please stick to the main question. But Opera won't allow me to freely change default search engine, but:

It's possible to change start page - possible malware use (but there's still need for malware to get to PC, ... that's real problem)
Is sending un-secure(some are secure, based on original request) every site I visit to its servers - Fraud check / Tracking ? (If not by Opera, than can be abused by ITS, ....)
Only 1 of 10 default engines uses secure connection !!! And that's Google known by tracking users - PRIVACY !

So please don't tell me your default search engines are safe! Hell they're not! So where's your security concern now? This way (you think is right for me, ....) I don't feel safe! And I feel forced!
If malware will get to your PC, it's question of PC security and user knowledge. Learn users to be secure, use Antivirus, Firewall, ... Don't use it as excuse to restrict our free choice. Disallow this is short-sighted policy. And start of forcing us to use what you decide is right for us. It's unacceptable. You are simplifying this as question of one more press. I see this also as question of freedom. Be free to choose what I want.
...
"Safe" covers a lot of things. Default search engine selection is just one fragment of 'safety', and it is one on which Opera happened to concentrate when fashioning the browser search functionality as it has. It is focused on protecting a user from hijacking of his search engine.
Things like changing start pages, fraud-checking (pro and con), security of given search engines, etc. are all elements of safety, indeed. But they are other elements of safety. As you said, this topic is about allowing users to freely choose their default search engines, and all those other 'safety' areas are outside the particular area of safety affected by controlling whether or not a default search engine can be customized.

But default search engine is not the biggest issue, like you proclaim it to be. Also as I wrote. Take a look at these default search engines. How "safe" they really are. Still you're excusing change due to security reasons. You're mixing layers and priorities of security and customization. Default search engine is "big" deal (you don't care in what way it can be changed), but you don't care about JavaScript, Cookies, and o lot of other things. But default search engine sure, it's something different? No it's not.

"Safe hex", IMO, is the key to keeping a system free from malware, whether or not that involves using a particular security tool (AV, firewall, anti-executable, etc) or even several of them. But safe hex is simply a pattern of choices, and just as important as what sites one visits and what one clicks on, is the software one chooses to employ to do it... and in what the software designers have taken into consideration in terms of safety. If a browser is immune to search engine hijacking by some zero-day, drive-by-triggered exploit, it's one less thing a user has to be concerned with. For some users, this is important, for others not so much. If the user doesn't wish that built-in safety protection, he can choose to use a browser that doesn't provide it.

Hijacking is here from long time ago. Still it didn't stopped browsers from changing default search engines, and reduce itself to useless software. You're proclaiming, like it's something that was invented just now. So now we have to force you, restrict? Sure don't use PC, you'll be safe... Nonsense. And you can't claim that browser is immune. You don't know what will be tomorrow. It's just blindness and excusing. That this approach is "perfect" one. It's not. And now I and many users are concerned about your "safe" default engines. Don't you get it? That's also the reason for asking for this option. You're telling that securing option to change of engine is right. But you don't care, that in current settings it's not safe! It's not safe, not talking about privacy concerns. So where is the security here? I should be glad? That I can't change engine to safer one? Ok, you maybe are. I and many others are not. Fact that I'm stuck with default settings is not making anything safer like you said.

[stealth789]

stealth789 last edited by

You're suggesting Opera provide a setting to allow a user to set a custom default search engine not already on Opera's default list... that's all well and good, and you've stated your case at length. But realize that a setting implies a mechanism to implement the setting, and that implies a browser architecture perhaps altered to support the mechanism. And all of that implies effort and resources to implement, debug, and test for security. Balance that against Opera's suggestion of a user simply prefixing his search with a single letter to call up an ordinary custom search engine, a path which costs no resources to implement, other than user convenience. I gave up coding some years ago, but in those days, responding to a meritorious safety-impacting suggestion that had an easy existing alternative received much less priority and attention than responding to one that represented a genuine crisis.

In the first hand, from what I've read there's also problem and huge against with adding even safe engines by Opera. So then question of security of mechanism to change engine is just, let's say food for thought. If your arguments are strictly about security of mechanism, than adding safe engine wouldn't be an issue you know.

But about mechanism itself and architecture. Here I'll write some of my assumptions, as I didn't debug code or whatever. Just take some looks to how things works. Basically Chromium use file Web Data (SQLite) where all engines are stored. Default and Custom. Opera use the same file. They just decided, that only custom engines will be there. Still as Opera is Based on Chromium, I think main core of things will be similar. Only source will be different. Opera have default search engines stored in file "C:\Program Files (x86)\Opera\22.0.1471.70\resources\default_partner_content.json". So from structure of file I presume, that if Opera will decide, they can simply add any number of search engines. They just decided to select 5. But sure, maybe even this number is hard-coded, who knows. When I delete this file, only Google will be used. This indicates it's hard-coded in opera.exe. Basically if file is modified or deleted, revert back to google = kind of failsafe. So basically this whole mechanism is working. No need to change architecture here. Then there's problem with usage. This file itself has comment with some key. It looks like some kind of code Base64 encoded. Also if Web Data there are records in table meta, like: Default Search Provider Keyword, Default Search Provider Keyword Hash. And hash looks again like some Base64 encoded key.
So in principle, mechanism is kind of abstract. The only problem is to be able to hash this. But basically if software itself can hash this. Than it can be possible to hash it again when you need to change it. Because it still has to be opened to changes. Sure maybe this files are hashed in Opera, or while updating and using info from PC like ID of CPU, HD. But still if onlu security is issue, allow users to edit this file, even with some kind of way to hash it. Then arguments about "standard" users, and their safety will be useless.

At the end of the day, Opera's browser currently 'is what it is'. You've offered and defended your suggestion, and it's been discussed and hopefully Opera will consider it. In the meantime, you have a choice: use Opera and its preset search engine defaults as-is, use an extension 'fix' with Opera, install a regular custom search engine and prefix your searches with a single letter, or use another browser that allows you to set your own custom default engine.

I knew about all of my options before. Still it's not topic, and not reason why not.

[lem729]

lem729 last edited by

I defer to Opera on safety issues. So let's hope they look at the issue and decide what they can safely do. i want them, though, to protect me. I look to Opera for that safety determination. I don't want them to offer unsafe search engines. I think what Blackbird71 has said is that when Opera balances priorities -- dealing with issues that need immediately programming, and this one where people can use any search engine they want if they type one letter in front of the search -- it may not be the highest priority to be adding additional default search engines. There is an alternative procedure -- typing the one letter in front of the additional search -- which can work and is not unduly burdensome.

[blackbird71]

blackbird71 last edited by

...
But default search engine is not the biggest issue, like you proclaim it to be. Also as I wrote. Take a look at these default search engines. How "safe" they really are. Still you're excusing change due to security reasons. You're mixing layers and priorities of security and customization. Default search engine is "big" deal (you don't care in what way it can be changed), but you don't care about JavaScript, Cookies, and o lot of other things. But default search engine sure, it's something different? No it's not.
...
Hijacking is here from long time ago. Still it didn't stopped browsers from changing default search engines, and reduce itself to useless software. You're proclaiming, like it's something that was invented just now. So now we have to force you, restrict? ... So where is the security here? I should be glad? That I can't change engine to safer one? Ok, you maybe are. I and many others are not. Fact that I'm stuck with default settings is not making anything safer like you said.

I nowhere "proclaimed" default search engines to be the 'biggest' issue. I simply noted that it is a security-related issue, and explained that Opera took the design action that it did regarding that for the reasons it has long-ago stated. Other security issues are just that: other ones, and whether Opera should address them or has addressed them, and how, are subjects for other discussions. Neither am I "excusing" anything, I'm simply explaining what Opera has multiple times stated, and some added aspects of the situation that I know to be true.

You started this thread (and your other one) on the subject of default search engines, and I've merely discussed it within the confines of that topic. Either there's something of a language difference between us, or I've somehow not expressed myself clearly. I certainly care about other security issues, but what Opera (or any other browser maker) does or does not do with regard to them seems, IMO, to lie outside the topic at issue here. Or are you suggesting that the topic for your thread now is to include a general discussion of all the possible security elements and choices made in the design of Opera's Blink browser?

Indeed, other browsers elect to deal with the possibility of search-engine hijacking differently, if at all. That's their choice, for whatever their reasons. Opera does a number of things differently than other browsers, as it has for a very long time... and this is simply one more such thing.

As far as "being stuck" with Opera's default settings situation, that situation is whatever you make of it. I outlined earlier that you have 4 choices available, going forward. Again, I must state that you have made your suggestion and given your reasons; responses to some of your comments have been given here by users. Now a couple of realities remain: you have to make your own choice about what to do with the Opera browser as it currently is, or select a different browser; Opera will make its own decision regarding your suggestion and whether, when, or how to implement it. In the meantime, the browser remains what it is.

[stealth789]

stealth789 last edited by

I defer to Opera on safety issues. So let's hope they look at the issue and decide what they can safely do. i want them, though, to protect me. I look to Opera for that safety determination.

I understand your point in your situation. Mine is just bit different.

I don't want them to offer unsafe search engines.

How can you say this? Nobody is saying about offering unsafe engines! Actually from my observation almost all of current are.

I think what Blackbird71 has said is that when Opera balances priorities -- dealing with issues that need immediately programming, and this one where people can use any search engine they want if they type one letter in front of the search -- it may not be the highest priority to be adding additional default search engines. There is an alternative procedure -- typing the one letter in front of the additional search -- which can work and is not unduly burdensome.

It's not about programming, even one letter. It's about forced control over something, where reasons are for speculations. And if safety would be primary issue, even attitude would be much different. I personally perceive it like restriction of my free choice, and forcing me to use sometimes some unsafe engine, or one of them.
And if one letter is so easy like you still argue. They can add few really safe engines to default list. It's still easy. I can even write rules to .json file for them, so it will be even easier. So there's no need for many people to press like monkeys. Just change in one place. Also easy. So where's problem here? It's more programming? No. It's peace of cake. And you are not forced to use any of this additional engine. So please stop using "easy" way of custom engines for many people to work. When you don't accept change in one place that can make it easier for many.

[lem729]

lem729 last edited by

It's not about programming, even one letter. It's about forced control over something, where reasons are for speculations. And if safety would be primary issue, even attitude would be much different.

Every piece of software, every institution that you are a member of, every profession that you may work in may require something of you different than others. And in a free marketplace, this is not a "forced control" issue. Nor is this a "liberty" issue as you described it elsewhere in a post on the general subject matter (I'm not sure whether in this thread or a related one). Because you can go elsewhere. You are free to do that. I cannot state that more strongly. When you mixup/confuse a liberty issue or a forced control issue, you distort the terms, and make almost meaningless real "liberty" issues, or real "forced control" issues, where the person generally has nowhere else to go. If you want to participate -- that is, use the software, be in a profession, join a club, become a member of an organization, you follow the procedures, or as blackbird71 said with regard to Opera 22 (which is a browser, where there is competition, and you are by no means trapped), "you have to make your own choice about what to do with the Opera browser as it currently is, or select a different browser."

[blackbird71]

blackbird71 last edited by

...
It's not about programming, even one letter. It's about forced control over something, where reasons are for speculations. And if safety would be primary issue, even attitude would be much different.

Forced control would be Opera prohibiting any custom search engine from being installed by a user. Providing a rigid selection of defaults is a convenience feature, if an easy alternative is included for use of any other search engine... and typing one additional letter in a search bar is an easy alternative. I agree that it might be a convenience issue, but it hardly rises to the level of a "freedom" issue.

And by the way, I use Opera 12.14 instead of 12.15-12.17 (where the default behavior was changed to the same as now is in Blink Opera) for precisely this default search engine reason... that is, for the convenience it affords me to use StartPage as my default browser. But I'd hardly describe my freedom as having been infringed by what they did in removing the custom ability from the default choices. I deal with any increased search-engine hijacking risks other ways (safe hex). Nevertheless, I respect Opera's design choice in doing what they have with the seach engines, and the reasons they've provided.

[stealth789]

stealth789 last edited by

It's not about programming, even one letter. It's about forced control over something, where reasons are for speculations. And if safety would be primary issue, even attitude would be much different.

Every piece of software, every institution that you are a member of, every profession that you may work in may require something of you different than others. And in a free marketplace, this is not a "forced control" issue. This is not a liberty issue. Because you can go elsewhere. I cannot state that more strongly. When you mixup/confuse a liberty issue or a forced control issue, you distort the terms, and make almost meaningless real "liberty" issues, or real "forced control" issues. If you want to participate, you follow the procedures, or as blackbird71 said, "you have to make your own choice about what to do with the Opera browser as it currently is, or select a different browser; Opera will make its own decision regarding your suggestion and whether, when, or how to implement it. In the meantime, the browser remains what it is.

It's not liberty issue? Other browser allows it. Allow me to choose safe engine. Opera is deciding for many. Even for some that don't change engine ever. And if they want to, are restricted to do so. It's no restricting? And follow the procedures? Do you know what liberty is?
In any other forums, I give suggestion, and I can argue. Here you're arguments are most time just distraction.

And you thing that approach aka: I know what's best. If you want change it, I don't care. Go elsewhere... You think this is the way how Opera will be better product for everybody? With this approach to things. When you can't argue, you are firing someone away. Oh sure. Liberty...

And sure, if this will be statement of Opera, and their way of dealing with things, to force their way, ignoring things, doing decisions without right reasons, some even behind users back, it will change my position. And also position of others. Hope it won't come to this. Also this is about finding reasons, where they can be. You're arguing just the way, who won't care, come on board. You who don't, go away. Even when your reasons are right. Basically this approach is just about loosing freedom.

[stealth789]

stealth789 last edited by

...
It's not about programming, even one letter. It's about forced control over something, where reasons are for speculations. And if safety would be primary issue, even attitude would be much different.

Forced control would be Opera prohibiting any custom search engine from being installed by a user. Providing a rigid selection of defaults is a convenience feature, if an easy alternative is included for use of any other search engine... and typing one additional letter in a search bar is an easy alternative. I agree that it might be a convenience issue, but it hardly rises to the level of a "freedom" issue.

It's about freedom, when even this default list cannot be expanded. Because then there's no argument about security. And then there are totaly different reasons for this. And it has nothing to do with security. It's just excuse to use forced list.

And by the way, I use Opera 12.14 instead of 12.15-12.17 (where the default behavior was changed to the same as now is in Blink Opera) for precisely this default search engine reason... that is, for the convenience it affords me to use StartPage as my default browser. But I'd hardly describe my freedom as having been infringed by what they did in removing the custom ability from the default choices. I deal with any increased search-engine hijacking risks other ways (safe hex). Nevertheless, I respect Opera's design choice in doing what they have with the seach engines, and the reasons they've provided.

It's just deceiving. Correct question is, why then they didn't add StartPage. Ixquick,... to default serach engines, when it's safe, better much safer than engines they provide, and many are asking for it? It's lot of work? It's safer?

[Deleted User]

Deleted User last edited by

Any chance you might consider just taking your paranoia elsewhere? Give it a rest for crying out loud. You've beaten it to death and no one is really that concerned.

[blackbird71]

blackbird71 last edited by

...
It's about freedom, when even this default list cannot be expanded. Because then there's no argument about security. And then there are totaly different reasons for this. And it has nothing to do with security. It's just excuse to use forced list.
...
It's just deceiving. Correct question is, why then they didn't add StartPage. Ixquick,... to default serach engines, when it's safe, better much safer than engines they provide, and many are asking for it? It's lot of work? It's safer?

Hmm... let's see now. If I use one of many free-of-charge browsers that requires me to insert a prefix letter before my search term in order to use a custom search engine, or else I have to either install an extension or use another browser, that has infringed on my "freedom". I'm sorry, but that concept of freedom either cheapens the kind of real freedom so many have died for worldwide, or it's a woefully exaggerated misuse of the term.

And no, there is no "correct" question involved... there's only just a question that you've asked. At the time Opera removed the custom default search engine capability (12.15), Opera was already in a Presto wind-down phase... Presto developers either were leaving or being re-assigned to Blink development, initially for the mobile markets. You and I are free (real "freedom") to speculate in hindsight what they could have done, how complex or difficult it might have been, or whether they "shoulda, coulda, woulda" done it under other circumstances. But they didn't do it. End of story. Our opinions on that are pure speculation.