Search Engine Default

stealth789

stealth789

Do you know, stealth789 what the word "defer" means. Look it up in a dictionary. I DEFER to Opera on this issue. Period. Browser safety is within their jurisdiction. I have no inclination to second guess them on this based on anything you have said.

And you also don't have own opinion? About what is right? Then this kind of arguments are useless.

As for the liberty quote, it's absurdly out of context. You are given a free browser with certain features. You have paid for it nothing, zero, zip, rien, nada. If you like it fine. If not, as sidneyneto offers, use another browser, where you're happier with how they manage search engines. Liberty suggests rights, and you have no right to utilization of all the default search engines you might like to stay up nights fantasizing about. But you can use any search engine you want from the main Address Bar of Opera if you're not too challenged to type one letter or two in front of the search query. Really, it's quite easy.

Again what about "free" browser. Money comes from searches. Opera knows that it's better use free browser. It's business model. They know they can't make money from browser itself. Any other current browser know it. So why do you use this kind of bogus argument? Money for browser are history. And you're arguing to something off topic rather to something you don't like to.

And example of engines proves, that your primary point is not security itself. You didn't gave any reason, how this can be done safely. Only that it cannot be, just because!

Now maybe you don't care about the safety of your passwords, your credit cards, your identity, etc. But let me assure you that many others do. It's a vital interest for them. And they want Opera to protect it, as best Opera can.

I care much about my privacy. Just Opera ignores parts of it. But sure I won't save any password in Browser... And setting default search engine has nothing to do with it. It's question of allover security, not search engine.

stealth789

stealth789

Well, you've provided your suggestion over in the Suggestion Box forum, so it joins the countless others there for Opera to ponder and digest. Actually, I'd love to see Opera provide a safe way for users to add a custom search engine to the default list, since I use StartPage consistently as default in all my other browsers... but given all the things users would like to see the developers add to the mix, it's anyone's guess where this one ranks on their list of things to do - particularly since one can already install a custom engine and simply use a single-letter shortcut to access it.

This one is question of allowing user use custom default search engine. Be free to choose what I want. Don't let anyone to force me to use engine they think is right. And you cannot simply downplay this fact for option to pressing one more key. This as it's question of option is also question of principle how Opera deals with users. Simplifying this question won't change facts.

lem729

lem729

I care much about my privacy. Just Opera ignores parts of it. But sure I won't save any password in Browser...

But I have so many sites that require passwords. Do you type in the password every time you go to a location that requires it? Maybe you can be less concerned about a hijacked search engine, because you don't have passwords in your browser or computer. I do so i have greater reason for concern about a jijacked search engine.

stealth789

stealth789

I care much about my privacy. Just Opera ignores parts of it. But sure I won't save any password in Browser...

But I have so many sites that require passwords. Do you type in the password every time you go to a location that requires it? Maybe you can be less concerned about a hijacked search engine, because you don't have passwords in your browser or computer. I do so i have greater reason for concern about a jijacked search engine.

First: Topic is about allowing user to free choose default search engine. Talking about password is another theme! It's question of allover security of PC, not about changing of search engine itself. So please stick to the main question. But Opera won't allow me to freely change default search engine, but:

It's possible to change start page - possible malware use (but there's still need for malware to get to PC, ... that's real problem)
Is sending un-secure(some are secure, based on original request) every site I visit to its servers - Fraud check / Tracking ? (If not by Opera, than can be abused by ITS, ....)
Only 1 of 10 default engines uses secure connection !!! And that's Google known by tracking users - PRIVACY !

So please don't tell me your default search engines are safe! Hell they're not! So where's your security concern now? This way (you think is right for me, ....) I don't feel safe! And I feel forced!

If malware will get to your PC, it's question of PC security and user knowledge. Learn users to be secure, use Antivirus, Firewall, ... Don't use it as excuse to restrict our free choice. Disallow this is short-sighted policy. And start of forcing us to use what you decide is right for us. It's unacceptable. You are simplifying this as question of one more press. I see this also as question of freedom. Be free to choose what I want.

Password (OFFTOPIC):

Even it is really different topic, sure I care much for my passwords. But from old times I know, that passwords in browser are easy to decrypt/compromise! If you have concerns about security, care about your passwords, and don't keep them in browser first! Not be concerned so much about changing default search engine....

Also as I mentioned my concenrns about my security and privacy of Opera Link here. So if passwords are sending to link, from my point and current knowledge it's possible security risk! So also basically from security side of view I strongly recommend anyone NOT TO SAVE ANY PASSWORD IN ANY BROWSER!!! It's standard tactic for any possible malware/virus to grab data. And there's a lot of utilities that can simply decrypt it.

Simple virus (has nothing to do strictly with browser, or search engine,...) will decrypt your Login Data and send it to server. That's what malware can do. Why the hell he need your search engines. You're excusing restricting and forcing as to free choice, but you're blind to real dangers!

And practically for passwords I'm long time user of software called KeePass Password Safe. And I use strong generated passwords. Also there's way to use rules which password it can use. So I have installed extension Url in title (and alternatives in other browsers). Then my rules are using url patterns for matching. But this is another advanced theme. Sure I can give some tips here. But at least with this my passwords are correctly encrypted, and safe.

Deleted User

Deleted User

That is ridiculous not to save passwords. You only say about Google, however you can use Bing which I like it or Yahoo. Everyone say Google spy your movements on the web and save data about you. I never give a sh*** about that, and you know why? I do not do anything wrong on Google, my conscious is cleaned.

stealth789

stealth789

That is ridiculous not to save passwords. You only say about Google, however you can use Bing which I like it or Yahoo. Everyone say Google spy your movements on the web and save data about you. I never give a sh*** about that, and you know why? I do not do anything wrong on Google, my conscious is cleaned.

Default engines: First I meantion Google, as it is only engine to set at least secure connection. As you can see here by my tests here https://forums.opera.com/post/42572 . Bing and Yahoo are not set correctly! They can use secure connection, but by default they don't. That is just an example how safe default engines are, when somebody is arguing, that Opera give me safety?! Even if I forgot about restricting my freedom of choice.

You said "I never give a sh*** about that, and you know why? I do not do anything wrong on Google, my conscious is cleaned."
Sure I also don't do anything illegal or something wrong. But it doesn't mean in any way, that I've gave anybody implicitly right to spy on me, and violate my privacy! You're mistaken right reasons here. I don't want to loose my privacy! I don't want to be tracked by any company this way. It's my right! People sometimes fought for rights to freedom. Now people just forget, that freedom is something they can't give up for free! Not any peace of it! Now they don't care, and are giving up their rights just for free. Not thinking about consequences. Now you allow this, and take it for "normal", and on tomorrow, it'll be another story,... Straight way to hell...

Passwords (OFFTOPIC): "That is ridiculous not to save passwords.": It's up to you what and how you'll do. Your free decision. I'm telling from my experience. Saving password in browser is not safe! I work in IT sector, and really don't remember to meet somebody using browser's password management. It's easy to decrypt, and possible way to exploit your private data. And huge bigger danger then any engine itself. But sure it's up to you! I'm not telling you what to do. I'm telling you what I know, and what are the real dangers, and if it's possible also way, how to be more secure. I'm not keeping you blind, and avoiding real dangers, and using excuses. Still: DECISION IS YOURS. YOURS ONLY!

Deleted User

Deleted User

Please, do not use capital letter, that is kind of rudeness.

Use another browser if you do not like opera, this discussions is going nowhere. I trust in Opera and Google.

stealth789

stealth789

Please, do not use capital letter, that is kind of rudeness.

I'm sorry for caps. My mistake.

Use another browser if you do not like opera

Topic is not about liking Opera. And sure I'm the one who can decide what to choose. Not you! Accept this fact. Topic is about option to add/change/remove default search engine. Please stick to it.

, this discussions is going nowhere.

You mean you're out of arguments against it? Because I didn't see relevant arguments why not. I try to argue on all arguments, but many of you just ignore answering, or use other themes. Even there's no will to consider things. Only simple no without correct reason as an answer.

I trust in Opera and Google.

Again topic is not primary about trust.

Deleted User

Deleted User

Accept the fact that discussing about search engines won't change the browser. Lem729 has good arguments and I post some too. You say Opera doesn't give freedom to the users, you limit your own freedom because you are kinda of afraid of saving passwords (I know, person choice, keep with that if you want, I will never make anyone to do what do not want to do), use this or that search engine because of spy. I do nit feel forced to use Google search.

stealth789

stealth789

Accept the fact that discussing about search engines won't change the browser.

If this is true, and discussing is useless, even this forum is useless. This is nonsense.

Lem729 has good arguments and I post some too.

Sure, some. But didn't answer many questions, and often used other themes to excuse or avoid answer. Still I tried to argument on everything. Not avoiding subject, like you do.

You say Opera doesn't give freedom to the users, you limit your own freedom because you are kinda of afraid of saving passwords (I know, person choice, keep with that if you want, I will never make anyone to do what do not want to do),

Off-topic: I limit? I use one software for many programs and any browser. One centralized system. It's not limiting. It's safer like in any browser, and centralized. Still my personal point, but really has nothing to do with limitation of anything.

use this or that search engine because of spy. I do nit feel forced to use Google search.

It's about be free to choose. Not be forced, without proper reason. You maybe don't feel forced, but me and many others do.

Deleted User

Deleted User

Let's just stop it, I said everything that I could do,ok.

stealth789

stealth789

Sure maybe suggestion forum is best place. I hoped all communication will take place there. Because I'm kind of waiting for some internal answer, what is exact status and approach to this request. Something. Some conclusion.

Please don't take any of this personally. I have no intention to attack anybody. I'm just arguing about topic, and trying to make a stand here. Give reason to request. That's all.

lem729

lem729

Stealth789

The password issue is not at all off topic. You raised it yourself. You said that you save no passwords in your computer so it is clear that you are much less at risk if there is search engine hijacking. You don't have passwords to lose. Those of us who do save passwords -- the vast majority of Opera users -- in their browser are very much at risk.

And so we want Opera to add search engines for us, only if Opera concludes that it is safe to do so, that they do not unduly expose us to a search engine hijacking, which puts our passwords at risk, our credit cards, our personal identities. Nothing more to say on this. Like sidneyneto, I feel this topic has been exhausted exhausted exhausted . ..

If you want to keep talking to yourself on this keep posting. I have nothing more to say, I think this thread and the one in the suggestion box should be closed.

stealth789

stealth789

Stealth789
The password issue is not at all off topic. You raised it yourself. You said that you save no passwords in your computer so it is clear that you are less at risk if there is search engine hijacking. Ypu don't have passwords to lose. Those of us do not save passwords -- the vast majority of Opera users -- in their browser are very much at risk.

I don't mean total offtopic. But it's not main topic. It's maybe connected. But you use arguments about hijacking. Than in the first place, there's need for malware to get to PC. And it's not question of this topic, but about PC security, proper Avntivirus,... and protection. So also talking about malware is another topic. You cannot connect anything the way you want. Because your reasons are just like tell everybody don't connect to internet, because something bad can happen. It's not proper argumentation to this topic. It's just diversion of topic to another one.
Because there are many other settings, that can compromise user safety, but are allowed! So you can't tell this one is another in principle.

And I have passwords on my computer, just in another place.

And so we want Opera to add search engines for us, only if Opera concludes that it is safe to do so, that they do not unduly expose us to a search engine hijacking, which puts our passwords at risk, our credit cards, our personal identities. Nothing more to say on this. Like sidneyneto, I feel this topic has been exhausted exhausted exhausted . ..

I understand. But as I mentioned, also now Opera uses engines, that are not so secure. So I can't accept, that their decision is wholesome correct and secure. Also if I like software, it doesn't mean I will trust it blindly.

So you know this trust was broken when I find out about fraud check packets. Because I didn't realized until then, that opera will use something like this, that can in any way compromise my privacy. Without option to disable it, even without asking. This kind of behavior is unacceptable for any software.

Still this won't change fact, that if user want to use some specific engine, they can't. And you can't excuse this for security or anything, when there's not even will to find common stand, without proper reasons. In this position it's unfortunately looking only like forcing.

Still someone from Opera itself should give some standing here.

Deleted User

Deleted User

Sure maybe suggestion forum is best place. I hoped all communication will take place there. Because I'm kind of waiting for some internal answer, what is exact status and approach to this request. Something. Some conclusion.
Please don't take any of this personally. I have no intention to attack anybody. I'm just arguing about topic, and trying to make a stand here. Give reason to request. That's all.

No problem, I did not feel offended

blackbird71

blackbird71

...
First: Topic is about allowing user to free choose default search engine. Talking about password is another theme! It's question of allover security of PC, not about changing of search engine itself. So please stick to the main question. But Opera won't allow me to freely change default search engine, but:

It's possible to change start page - possible malware use (but there's still need for malware to get to PC, ... that's real problem)
Is sending un-secure(some are secure, based on original request) every site I visit to its servers - Fraud check / Tracking ? (If not by Opera, than can be abused by ITS, ....)
Only 1 of 10 default engines uses secure connection !!! And that's Google known by tracking users - PRIVACY !

So please don't tell me your default search engines are safe! Hell they're not! So where's your security concern now? This way (you think is right for me, ....) I don't feel safe! And I feel forced!
If malware will get to your PC, it's question of PC security and user knowledge. Learn users to be secure, use Antivirus, Firewall, ... Don't use it as excuse to restrict our free choice. Disallow this is short-sighted policy. And start of forcing us to use what you decide is right for us. It's unacceptable. You are simplifying this as question of one more press. I see this also as question of freedom. Be free to choose what I want.
...

"Safe" covers a lot of things. Default search engine selection is just one fragment of 'safety', and it is one on which Opera happened to concentrate when fashioning the browser search functionality as it has. It is focused on protecting a user from hijacking of his search engine.

Things like changing start pages, fraud-checking (pro and con), security of given search engines, etc. are all elements of safety, indeed. But they are other elements of safety. As you said, this topic is about allowing users to freely choose their default search engines, and all those other 'safety' areas are outside the particular area of safety affected by controlling whether or not a default search engine can be customized.

"Safe hex", IMO, is the key to keeping a system free from malware, whether or not that involves using a particular security tool (AV, firewall, anti-executable, etc) or even several of them. But safe hex is simply a pattern of choices, and just as important as what sites one visits and what one clicks on, is the software one chooses to employ to do it... and in what the software designers have taken into consideration in terms of safety. If a browser is immune to search engine hijacking by some zero-day, drive-by-triggered exploit, it's one less thing a user has to be concerned with. For some users, this is important, for others not so much. If the user doesn't wish that built-in safety protection, he can choose to use a browser that doesn't provide it.

You're suggesting Opera provide a setting to allow a user to set a custom default search engine not already on Opera's default list... that's all well and good, and you've stated your case at length. But realize that a setting implies a mechanism to implement the setting, and that implies a browser architecture perhaps altered to support the mechanism. And all of that implies effort and resources to implement, debug, and test for security. Balance that against Opera's suggestion of a user simply prefixing his search with a single letter to call up an ordinary custom search engine, a path which costs no resources to implement, other than user convenience. I gave up coding some years ago, but in those days, responding to a meritorious safety-impacting suggestion that had an easy existing alternative received much less priority and attention than responding to one that represented a genuine crisis.

At the end of the day, Opera's browser currently 'is what it is'. You've offered and defended your suggestion, and it's been discussed and hopefully Opera will consider it. In the meantime, you have a choice: use Opera and its preset search engine defaults as-is, use an extension 'fix' with Opera, install a regular custom search engine and prefix your searches with a single letter, or use another browser that allows you to set your own custom default engine.

lem729

lem729

@blackbird

You're quite an awesome resource. And your post does make much clearer the current situation.

stealth789

stealth789

...
First: Topic is about allowing user to free choose default search engine. Talking about password is another theme! It's question of allover security of PC, not about changing of search engine itself. So please stick to the main question. But Opera won't allow me to freely change default search engine, but:

It's possible to change start page - possible malware use (but there's still need for malware to get to PC, ... that's real problem)
Is sending un-secure(some are secure, based on original request) every site I visit to its servers - Fraud check / Tracking ? (If not by Opera, than can be abused by ITS, ....)
Only 1 of 10 default engines uses secure connection !!! And that's Google known by tracking users - PRIVACY !

So please don't tell me your default search engines are safe! Hell they're not! So where's your security concern now? This way (you think is right for me, ....) I don't feel safe! And I feel forced!
If malware will get to your PC, it's question of PC security and user knowledge. Learn users to be secure, use Antivirus, Firewall, ... Don't use it as excuse to restrict our free choice. Disallow this is short-sighted policy. And start of forcing us to use what you decide is right for us. It's unacceptable. You are simplifying this as question of one more press. I see this also as question of freedom. Be free to choose what I want.
...
"Safe" covers a lot of things. Default search engine selection is just one fragment of 'safety', and it is one on which Opera happened to concentrate when fashioning the browser search functionality as it has. It is focused on protecting a user from hijacking of his search engine.
Things like changing start pages, fraud-checking (pro and con), security of given search engines, etc. are all elements of safety, indeed. But they are other elements of safety. As you said, this topic is about allowing users to freely choose their default search engines, and all those other 'safety' areas are outside the particular area of safety affected by controlling whether or not a default search engine can be customized.

But default search engine is not the biggest issue, like you proclaim it to be. Also as I wrote. Take a look at these default search engines. How "safe" they really are. Still you're excusing change due to security reasons. You're mixing layers and priorities of security and customization. Default search engine is "big" deal (you don't care in what way it can be changed), but you don't care about JavaScript, Cookies, and o lot of other things. But default search engine sure, it's something different? No it's not.

"Safe hex", IMO, is the key to keeping a system free from malware, whether or not that involves using a particular security tool (AV, firewall, anti-executable, etc) or even several of them. But safe hex is simply a pattern of choices, and just as important as what sites one visits and what one clicks on, is the software one chooses to employ to do it... and in what the software designers have taken into consideration in terms of safety. If a browser is immune to search engine hijacking by some zero-day, drive-by-triggered exploit, it's one less thing a user has to be concerned with. For some users, this is important, for others not so much. If the user doesn't wish that built-in safety protection, he can choose to use a browser that doesn't provide it.

Hijacking is here from long time ago. Still it didn't stopped browsers from changing default search engines, and reduce itself to useless software. You're proclaiming, like it's something that was invented just now. So now we have to force you, restrict? Sure don't use PC, you'll be safe... Nonsense. And you can't claim that browser is immune. You don't know what will be tomorrow. It's just blindness and excusing. That this approach is "perfect" one. It's not. And now I and many users are concerned about your "safe" default engines. Don't you get it? That's also the reason for asking for this option. You're telling that securing option to change of engine is right. But you don't care, that in current settings it's not safe! It's not safe, not talking about privacy concerns. So where is the security here? I should be glad? That I can't change engine to safer one? Ok, you maybe are. I and many others are not. Fact that I'm stuck with default settings is not making anything safer like you said.

stealth789

stealth789

You're suggesting Opera provide a setting to allow a user to set a custom default search engine not already on Opera's default list... that's all well and good, and you've stated your case at length. But realize that a setting implies a mechanism to implement the setting, and that implies a browser architecture perhaps altered to support the mechanism. And all of that implies effort and resources to implement, debug, and test for security. Balance that against Opera's suggestion of a user simply prefixing his search with a single letter to call up an ordinary custom search engine, a path which costs no resources to implement, other than user convenience. I gave up coding some years ago, but in those days, responding to a meritorious safety-impacting suggestion that had an easy existing alternative received much less priority and attention than responding to one that represented a genuine crisis.

In the first hand, from what I've read there's also problem and huge against with adding even safe engines by Opera. So then question of security of mechanism to change engine is just, let's say food for thought. If your arguments are strictly about security of mechanism, than adding safe engine wouldn't be an issue you know.

But about mechanism itself and architecture. Here I'll write some of my assumptions, as I didn't debug code or whatever. Just take some looks to how things works. Basically Chromium use file Web Data (SQLite) where all engines are stored. Default and Custom. Opera use the same file. They just decided, that only custom engines will be there. Still as Opera is Based on Chromium, I think main core of things will be similar. Only source will be different. Opera have default search engines stored in file "C:\Program Files (x86)\Opera\22.0.1471.70\resources\default_partner_content.json". So from structure of file I presume, that if Opera will decide, they can simply add any number of search engines. They just decided to select 5. But sure, maybe even this number is hard-coded, who knows. When I delete this file, only Google will be used. This indicates it's hard-coded in opera.exe. Basically if file is modified or deleted, revert back to google = kind of failsafe. So basically this whole mechanism is working. No need to change architecture here. Then there's problem with usage. This file itself has comment with some key. It looks like some kind of code Base64 encoded. Also if Web Data there are records in table meta, like: Default Search Provider Keyword, Default Search Provider Keyword Hash. And hash looks again like some Base64 encoded key.
So in principle, mechanism is kind of abstract. The only problem is to be able to hash this. But basically if software itself can hash this. Than it can be possible to hash it again when you need to change it. Because it still has to be opened to changes. Sure maybe this files are hashed in Opera, or while updating and using info from PC like ID of CPU, HD. But still if onlu security is issue, allow users to edit this file, even with some kind of way to hash it. Then arguments about "standard" users, and their safety will be useless.

At the end of the day, Opera's browser currently 'is what it is'. You've offered and defended your suggestion, and it's been discussed and hopefully Opera will consider it. In the meantime, you have a choice: use Opera and its preset search engine defaults as-is, use an extension 'fix' with Opera, install a regular custom search engine and prefix your searches with a single letter, or use another browser that allows you to set your own custom default engine.

I knew about all of my options before. Still it's not topic, and not reason why not.

lem729

lem729

I defer to Opera on safety issues. So let's hope they look at the issue and decide what they can safely do. i want them, though, to protect me. I look to Opera for that safety determination. I don't want them to offer unsafe search engines. I think what Blackbird71 has said is that when Opera balances priorities -- dealing with issues that need immediately programming, and this one where people can use any search engine they want if they type one letter in front of the search -- it may not be the highest priority to be adding additional default search engines. There is an alternative procedure -- typing the one letter in front of the additional search -- which can work and is not unduly burdensome.