Opera 20 - Another unhappy loyal supporter

jito463

jito463

Most of the time that's all you need.

Correction, that may be all you need, that does not mean it applies to everyone.

lem729

lem729

Most of the time that's all you need.

Correction, that may be all you need, that does not mean it applies to everyone.

I was addressing Wader, who said he wants a minimal interface. You can certainly have the Bookmarks bar present all the time if you choose. But there is an option not to, because it's easy enough to see the bookmarks, by just clicking on the icon for the bookmarks manager extension (Neater Bookmarks) and getting the vertical display of the bookmarks any time you want.

Deleted User

Deleted User

You don't need a permanently open Bookmarks bar in Opera 21. Get a bookmarks manager extension like Neater Bookmarks, that gives you a drop down of the bookmarks, when you click on the extension icon. As for the Personal bookmarks bar

Ah, I haven't done much exploring of the Chrome store - Neater Bookmarks is a nice extensions, thanks.

wader

lem729

lem729

It's great. https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/neater-bookmarks/ofgjggbjanlhbgaemjbkiegeebmccifi?hl=en

alfster

alfster

I had totally forgotten about the 'new' Chrome based Opera. I read all the stuff about the Beta version and basically it would seem all the same complaints are still there - especially the lack of text-cascading bookmarking with the replacement by the speed dial set-up which looks so laborious and unwieldy I'm not even going there - I do not need pretty pictures to go to favourited sites - in fact it is probably the worst method I could imagine.

Lots of people saying that there are plenty of extensions to download to get old functionality back is just mind-bogglingly crazy: no software developer worth their salt would remove useful functionality and then have 3rd party extensions fill the gaps.

The problem with software development these days is that they have been blinded by the shiny new visuals rather than stopping and working out what a browser should be doing...which is what Opera 12 did very well...a darn shame they could not have kept developing that version.

Having seen the Youtube video of the new one I does not grab me...although with all the snap zooms and pans across the screen I have no real idea what it can do apart from being more suited for touch screens.

lem729

lem729

Lots of people saying that there are plenty of extensions to download to get old functionality back is just mind-bogglingly crazy: no software developer worth their salt would remove useful functionality and then have 3rd party extensions fill the gaps.>

i don't at all agree with ypur premise. Is tab stacking functionality? It's nice, but not everyone needs it. The same with a sidebar. Everybody's view differs. I didn't need many of the features others deem functionality. On some things, I'm sure I would like more in the native browser -- like more bookmark manager type functionality, including import and export features (I'm hoping it will come). But for sure, it is not at all crazy to look to extensions to get the some of the functionality that a person may want. This "no software developer worth their salt line" is just a line in a post. It's way too general. The new Opera did not purposely eliminate functionality. It switched browser engines out of necessity (to get a significant speed increase, and have a browser up-to-date enough to access sites, the old browser was failing at), and had to start from scratch reprogramming. And since reprogramming takes time and financial resources (and since putting all of the stuff from the old browser in the new wasn't feasible (financially or otherwise) or could affect performance, the concept has changed. Not only the complexity of reprogramming dictates that, but economics also in providing a free browser. The new concept is a fast, minimalist basic browser (not cluttered by everyone's wish-list of functionality) with yes -- for sure -- extensions to fill individual needs. Get used to it ;). The ability to use a lot more extensions than the old browser every could is a huge plus.

exitstation

exitstation

What a disapointment!

All the features that were the reason I became a loyal Opera user for over a decade have been replaced with meaningless gadgets.

What features? Well all those Opera had and removed with version 20 to suck up to new users probably those that are happy enough to use Chrome.

Yeah, that's it! Opera just became as trivial and useless as Google Chrome.

Hopefully I can find a version 12. If not, then it's goodbye Opera

lem729

lem729

I can't disagree with you more strongly. The new Opera has many fine features, including more speed, a Super Speed dial, the Discover feature, access to many many more extensions. Meaningless gadgets. Lol. No need to argue there. If I like pistachio ice cream, you like Rum Butter. Opera still makes Opera 12 available on its website. So go there and take a look. Happy browsing.

blackbird71

blackbird71

I can't disagree with you more strongly. The new Opera has many fine features, including more speed, a Super Speed dial, the Discover feature, access to many many more extensions. Meaningless gadgets. Lol. No need to argue there. If I like pistachio ice cream, you like Rum Butter. Opera still makes Opera 12 available on its website. So go there and take a look. Happy browsing.

Speed is not a feature, it's a characteristic or attribute. And one browser's speed vs. other browsers' speeds is constantly changing, a fact one realizes if they've at all watched the various speed-test site results over more than a few months, let alone years.

IMO, Discover is far less of an "essential" native feature to a browser than any of a host of real features now natively missing in Blink Opera... previewing other sites' content ought to be a "summary" website or home-page feature, not a browser feature. Certainly some folks will like Discover and it probably gains Opera click-count revenue, but it also represents design effort that did not go into other, more browser-relevant, features.

User designation of his own engine choice (whatever that may be) as a persistent default search engine ought to be a foundational feature of a browser... searching is something central to almost every user, and ought to be under his full control. For over a year, we've heard it's a "security issue"... yet it's apparently not for other browser makers.

"Access to many many more extensions" now indeed has relevance, primarily because the associated "features" are now natively missing in Blink Opera. What you're asserting is precisely the "less is more" argument of competing browsers that Opera itself mocked for years. Extensions are inherently unstable in the grand scheme of things when compared with native features, unless the browser maker himself is also making/proof-testing those extensions. As it now stands, extensions are usually not developed by people "on the inside" of the various idiosyncracies of the browser engines (which thus too often causes hiccups, weird behavior, or incomplete performance as compared with native features), and extensions are far too often unpredictably broken by various of the now-frequent browser updates... updates which the average user is unable to block.

@lem729, of course you have every right to strongly disagree. But please understand that there is a host of dissatisfied 'Old Opera' users 'out here' who nevertheless don't see a browser in the same terms as you do (or apparently as the current Opera developers do). Most of such users view a good browser as natively a highly configurable tool, not merely an entry-level portal for viewing media-sites which has to be manually patched with extensions for each "feature" that experienced user instinct and experience show ought to be natively part of a good browser. To be highly configurable, the browser should possess the features in the first place.

I'll grant that such negative user feedback is seemingly making little impact on Opera's design thrusts, and probably won't in days to come. But that doesn't negate the validity of the feedback or the reasoning behind it.

A Former User

User designation of his own engine choice (whatever that may be) as a persistent default search engine ought to be a foundational feature of a browser... searching is something central to almost every user, and ought to be under his full control. For over a year, we've heard it's a "security issue"... yet it's apparently not for other browser makers.
Yes it is. Malware can install itself as search engine and set itself as default in all browsers but IE (which has a checkbox to disallow third-party apps from changing the default search engine).

lem729

lem729

But please understand that there is a host of dissatisfied 'Old Opera' users 'out here' who nevertheless don't see a browser in the same terms as you do (or apparently as the current Opera developers do). Most of such users view a good browser as natively a highly configurable tool, not merely an entry-level portal for viewing media-sites which has to be manually patched with extensions>

@blackbird71, I find intriguing what you claim as to the dissatisfied user's view of a good browser. You claim it's configurability. That's a nice word. Configurable to what end? Shall tabs be able to run on the left side of the browser, the right side, the bottom, upside down. And when you close a tab, what tab should show next (the one to the left of it, the one to the right of it, the one most frequently used, etc. And shall we configure side-panels. And what side of the browser shall the panel show on -- the left? the right? How about floating? Can we ask -- lol -- demand of the developer of this free browser, that he build something able to dance through an infinite number of hoops at the behest of a small group of power users. Why some even have 4000 bookmarks, and want Opera to be able to address how to handle that in an import vehicle. Must Opera provide a vehicle where the user can pin multiple groups of tabs, stack them, group them. I could go on forever with configuration features. "Greater configurability" is a nice phrase that means something different to everybody. It's sounds good. But really there's no end to where it leads.

To the extent greater configurability is important, the preferred vehicle for it, in my humble opinion, needs to be via extension. It's Firefox's way. Chrome's way. And now Opera's. Let me burden the performance of my browser with my wants. But you shouldn't burden my browser with yours. If we insist that this uber-configurability be built into the native (let me repeat, "free") browser, it's pie-in-the-sky impractical. It's almost -- dare I say it -- short-sighted and . . . , (this never ending push for more) selfish. Why? Because the demands of a few, will leave many users with a browser with a lot that they don't at all need or want, affecting performance. For sure! You can't have a browser jumping through it's infinite number of configurability hoops for nothing. Whether in the process, Opera would go bankrupt or not, someone will have to pay the piper.

"Access to many many more extensions" now indeed has relevance, primarily because the associated "features" are now natively missing in Blink Opera. What you're asserting is precisely the "less is more" argument>

Not at all, my friend My argument is that MORE IS MORE. Believe me, Opera Blink offers more! The Speed Dial with folders is more (far more) AND better than what Opera Presto offered in a Speed Dial. Stash is more. Discover is more. And the ability to utilize a hugely greater number of extensions is also far more. There are a near infinite number of configurability permutations via the extension route, that were not available before. Maybe all the extensions aren't there right now. Opera Blink cannot instantly recapture what people had in Opera Presto, but it can provide features that the users of Opera Presto could never have dreamed of. And as third party developers continue to improve, the configuration possibilities can only be enhanced. And what of that other browser vehicle? -- the put every power users' wish list of features into the browser. And with each new release, the users kept asking -- in the name of innovation -- for more in the native/basic "free" browser. Doesn't this sound a bit like all of the people who think there's no end to what Government can provide for free, and that there is no cost to the ability of society to function adequately? Isn't it a metaphor for the collapse of Western civilization (Forgive me a little humor). The extension vehicle for configurability in a free browser is a far better vehicle. Opera Presto was at a dead end. It had nowhere to go.

Deleted User

Deleted User

@lem729: You're a great guy! Keep up the good work in these forums. I have to admit that I've grown weary of the whining and therefore seldom read the forums as I once did. But today I decided to take a look and there you are... right on the money. You could not be more correct in your assessment. The so-called more configurable nature of Presto simply made it a far more difficult browser to keep abreast of constant change. And the fact that a large number of built-in features were unknown and in many cases unimportant to users (hence the fact that Opera was always under 3% of the user population) demonstrates that it is an irrelevant point. Firefox and Chrome are the two most popular browsers and for very good reason: extensions. Opera has awakened to that simple fact. Those geek users who loved the Presto suite form an exceedingly small group of users overall. Opera has made the correct decision and will undoubtedly be more successful as a result. What becomes of the disgruntled group is of relatively little importance. They can't remain with Presto forever so they'll be forced at some point to adopt one of the "extension" using browsers. Hopefully by then they will have awakened and smelled the coffee as it were.

blackbird71

blackbird71

But please understand that there is a host of dissatisfied 'Old Opera' users 'out here' who nevertheless don't see a browser in the same terms as you do (or apparently as the current Opera developers do). Most of such users view a good browser as natively a highly configurable tool, not merely an entry-level portal for viewing media-sites which has to be manually patched with extensions>

@blackbird71, I find intriguing what you claim as to the dissatisfied user's view of a good browser. You claim it's configurability. That's a nice word. Configurable to what end? ...

Configurable to the extent that control of significant, discrete functionality can be individually applied to a native toolbar (meaningful buttons that can be customized for what a user needs), immediately accessible by the user. Configurable to the extent that the user is natively in full control of 'his' browser, its search engines, its downloading, and its defaults. Configurable to the extent that a user can fully control what gets downloaded onto his computer and when, in terms of browser "updates". Configurable to the extent that a user can import/export personal data (like bookmarks) directly from/to competitors' browsers (without having to first install a third browser, be it Chrome or Opera12). Configurable to the extent that bar displays can be made to show icons, custom text, or both. Configurable to the extent... well... I could go on and on, without ever mentioning the 'cosmetic' things to which you refer like panels or tabs and where/how they're able to be displayed on the screen. Presto Opera had all of this configurability. Blink Opera has little or none of it.

I agree that a few of these elements can be obtained via extensions, in both Blink Opera and competitor browsers... and I've indeed used them. From personal experience, I assert such extensions, even where available, are usually measurably inferior to the performance experienced natively within an integrated browser like Presto Opera. And they break... such that each and every browser update presents a user with a potential trial-by-fire to find out which of his multiple extensions have now been broken, and in what areas... followed by a quest (often unfruitful) for a replacement extension that works similarly - along with an entirely new learning curve and different limitations, even if the user finds an alternate. That is a decidedly inferior user experience when compared with a well-designed, integrated browser.

Your comment about configurability causing a browser to jump through an infinite number of hoops to the detriment of performance is not only exaggerated, it is outright wrong with regard to how good code actually works. Admittedly, it takes more effort and insight to design-in a specific hook or access point, but unless the particular option is actually exercised, the specific code/resource cost is microscopic. Unless, of course, the basic engine architecture simply doesn't support it... and that implies that a poor choice of engines has been made and/or the designers lack the necessary creative horsepower or resources to implement the hook or access point.

Indeed, the Blink Opera browser is free (as are all browsers currently). Indeed, users can instead opt for an increasingly obsolete Opera 12.x version... or even go elsewhere to a competitor. But none of that changes or reduces the limitations of basic configurability of the browser that is currently Blink Opera. And its the comparison of that Blink Opera browser with the configurability of versions which have been issued by Opera in past years that has set so many users on edge. Think about it for a moment... it's been a year of successive Blink Opera versions, yet the complaints keep coming. People who bother to come here and express negative experiences with Blink Opera can certainly be dismissed as so many whiners and complainers. But consider that they have bothered to make an effort to register and post here at all, that they have made some very strong points, and that they represent a major part of Opera's previous core user base. They and their points can be ignored, but in so doing, Opera risks becoming just another for-the-masses browser in a marketplace dominated with far more well-financed, larger-design-base browsers whose only distinctives are the color of the borders or the number of Speed Dials or other gee-gaws they happen to offer in any given version.

lem729

lem729

@Leushino

Thank you, I very much appreciate the kind comment. Don't give up on -- or lose interest in -- the forum.

@blackbird71, First, as for your statement that if Blink can't perform all of the gymnastics that you want in terms of customization, it was a poor choice of engines, I'd say, no way! I would rather have Blink as it is (without all of your added features), and access to the full range of Chrome extensions. I think the extensions now available to Opera are a huge bonanza. Nothing can take away from the tremendous plus that that gives -- the riches that it makes available to the user, the myriad of customizing possibilities, now, and even more so, in the future. Now I have posted in the wish-list part of the forum requests for better treatments of how a bookmark should be taken in a browser to match the standard established by the major competitors, including a better import and export feature. That's not only for my benefit (though I'd personally find it useful), but I think it's damaging to Opera not to have it. Because Opera is doing such a superb job right now, in my view, with it's transition to the significantly faster, more up-to-date Opera Blink, and I think it's a terrific and fun browser, I'd like Opera to succeed.

Also while I have no personal desire or need for all of this full control that you want -- and I have no need for all of the custom text and buttons that you seem to want --- I have no objection to that part of it which doesn't impair browser performance, assuming Opera deems it cost effective. I suspect, though, that some of it might by itself or in the aggregate, impair performance and/or that Opera would not find it cost effective. I mean, really, would you have us believe that if it were so easy and minimal in cost to write "good code" (the kind that should not impair performance at all, you suggest) for all the features that you want (let alone the features that all of the other disgruntled want), Opera would not gladly do it. Because they have heretofore not, I suspect it's not easy and/or cost-effective... Or at least not for immediate implementation. If it is, in time, easy and cost effective, the features will come Though count me as a skeptic on this issue of "easy," and "cost-effective." In my universe, nothing is free, everything has a cost, even if the cost is simply that it's harder to make new changes to code (that are what you call "good code)," when 20, 30, 50 or 100 changes have already been made that add features, of varying levels of sophistication. I mean, it's a given that extensions can impact other extensions and affect browser performance. It's plausible to me that even if Opera does the programming of the additional features you want, the more changes that one makes to add levels of sophistication, the less easy (and cost-effective) it will be to make additional changes.

And what about that wish list of others of the disgruntled group. Now come on! I'm in the forum every day seeing what people write about and want. My comment in my last post about configurability is not greatly exaggerated. I generally took examples of what people have been asking for, which by the way, includes a wide range of tab features (stacking, multiple pinning, grouping, tiling, tabs in side panels, etc.), tabs on the bottom of the screen (because they have a laptop) or the right side, etc.that you now refer to as mere "cosmetic" changes. (I'm not sure that others of the Presto preference would agree with you there on that characterization). Now I don't want Opera, in trying to address the different desires of what the disgruntled group purportedly wants in the basic, native ("free") browser, to end up in the unseemly role of circus-like contortionist. I fear the result of such efforts to please would put them in just such a posture on the way . . . well, I fear bankruptcy. To your statement that extensions are inferior to what Presto provided, my thought would be that if the extension doesn't measure up, uninstall it, and look for a competitor's. I believe in the market place, where the best widget will out. There are strong extensions, and less strong. Opera is not a programming god. Others can do a good job, in cases, maybe even a better job. What I want in Opera is an architecture in the browser so built that if you add an extension, and then uninstall it (because you're unhappy with it) the browser is not adversely affected. And in no way do I want to be stuck in a browser with your wished-for total control. What I want in the new Opera is the perfect browser for extensions. :))) You put on the browser what you want via extension, and don't put it on my browser. And I'll give you the same consideration. I have 16 extensions right now. I'm delighted with what I have. They're not affecting your Opera one bit. There's a justice and beauty to the extension model.

Deleted User

Deleted User

"There's a justice and beauty (and utility) to the extension model!" Indeed there is. Why else would most users flock to Firefox and Chrome?

blackbird71

blackbird71

"There's a justice and beauty (and utility) to the extension model!" Indeed there is. Why else would most users flock to Firefox and Chrome?

Enormous amounts spent on advertising, favored product placements/tie-ins, financially ensuring websites code for compatibility, and marketing machinery. The same as its always been throughout all the browser wars. In the case of Firefox, it also came into its own at a time when there was an open-source reaction against IE.

edited to add And for some reason, this double-posted after an edit of the other post. Sigh...

blackbird71

blackbird71

... I mean, really, would you have us believe that if it were so easy and minimal in cost to write "good code" (the kind that should not impair performance at all, you suggest) for all the features that you want (let alone the features that all of the other disgruntled want), Opera would not gladly do it. Because they have heretofore not, I suspect it's not easy and/or cost-effective...

I nowhere stated it was either easy or cheap to write such code. I stated that the code would, if properly written, have minimal impact on its ultimate code size and host system resources required to implement the hooks and access points themselves. Do you seriously believe that employing 10 extensions to implement 10 essentially simple browser functional controls is less resource-intensive than the many fewer aggregate lines of native code required to implement those same 10 functions within a browser? That's the nature of well-written code.

But nothing well-written comes cheap. I made no argument that a fully-configurable browser would be a cheap development... I only pointed out that Blink Opera is not a fully-configurable browser, and a number of users both notice and are continuing to complain about such a lack of configurability. I'm certain that the accumulated cost of developing the configurability of the Presto browser wasn't cheap either, but abandoning it and setting course with the Blink engine with all the ramp-up demands on cost and limited resources it entailed was a decision Opera took on its own, not its users. If that decision has caused its developers to be "cramped" for the time/resources to develop configurability or if the architecture Opera chose refuses to economically support rich configurability, those are again consequences of Opera's decisions, not of anything inherently "wrong" with the desire of many of its users to see such native configurability retained in the browser.

If you want to defend Opera as trying to make the best browser it can with the very-limited resources that are the cost results of its decision to dump its already-cost-sunk past efforts in order to redesign its entire browser line and because of a mediocre-configurable engine set it has chosen, I would agree. But that does not make it a configurable browser for users, even with extensions. Employing extensions can be a useful thing to supplement browser functionality, but it is not a solid framework on which the basic browser configurability ought to be erected. At the end of the day, browsers whose configurability resides in extensions are browsers-on-the-cheap, because the cost of the functionality thereby attained is exported to outsiders. Economically that appears to be great for the browser maker, but for stability, continuity, and performance, it ends up being inferior for the user. There is simply no mechanism to assure that all extensions will work properly after a browser update... that's why they can break - and they do. The ability of an extension to attain the performance levels and details of well-integrated browser code simply does not exist without heavy interfacing modules with and through the browser APIs. These realities remain true, even if every popular browser out there were to make full usage of extensions for their configurability... though such universality is not the case, at least currently.

I too believe in the market place, but software related to the Internet has become a highly-distorted marketplace. Internet-related software revenue is writ in terms of click-counts, renting favored placements, software bundling, sale of user-tracking data, and all manner of other 'hidden' elements. Browsers are now being created simply as glitzy vehicles for bumping up such forms of revenue, not because the browser product itself is superior and commands its price in the marketplace. I've said this before and it bears repeating: a number of users, myself included, would gladly pay significant amounts of money for a browser that was configurable to the degree Presto was, but kept up to snuff in terms of site compatibility and basic web standards. However, that is not how browser makers, Opera included, currently look at the market any more... browsers are merely a vehicle to be given away freely in order to facilitate all the other modes of revenue intake. The result is that web browsers are not responding to the pressures of a 'normal' marketplace any longer, but to the peripheral revenue desires and mechanisms of their makers. This is something I decry, and while I do understand it, does not mean I accept without being critical of the browser results when genuine user functionality has been lost in that ongoing process.

A Former User

"There's a justice and beauty (and utility) to the extension model!" Indeed there is. Why else would most users flock to Firefox and Chrome?

Enormous amounts spent on advertising, favored product placements/tie-ins, financially ensuring websites code for compatibility, and marketing machinery. The same as its always been throughout all the browser wars. In the case of Firefox, it also came into its own at a time when there was an open-source reaction against IE.
edited to add And for some reason, this double-posted after an edit of the other post. Sigh...
In this I agree with you. Plus the dozens of notices of "we don't support your browser, download and use this one instead" and other issues caused by browser sniffing and bad coding from devs. And Chrome bundled (offered) in various software installers... And don't forget Google backed Firefox growth back then when they didn't have their own browser (since they were helping spread a browser where Google is the default search engine), with ads, bundles, Google Pack, etc, and it was more about IE6 sucking so bad and Fx rising as the only free alternative than any increased awareness about open source software.

PS. I can't reproduce the problem with duplicating the post after editing here, though I saw your duplicated comments and deleted them.

blackbird71

blackbird71

"There's a justice and beauty (and utility) to the extension model!" Indeed there is. Why else would most users flock to Firefox and Chrome?

Enormous amounts spent on advertising, favored product placements/tie-ins, financially ensuring websites code for compatibility, and marketing machinery. The same as its always been throughout all the browser wars. In the case of Firefox, it also came into its own at a time when there was an open-source reaction against IE.
In this I agree with you. ... and it was more about IE6 sucking so bad and Fx rising as the only free alternative than any increased awareness about open source software.

Perhaps. But in my own fairly wide circle of browser users (among friends and at work places) the Firefox thinking at the time was dominated mostly by those who were especially enamored of open-source software because Firefox (or Firebird in the earlier days) was such an outstanding example of what could be created via open source techniques. The "spirit" of that day was that, at last, the users could influence the design of a browser to do what they wanted, instead of what suited out-of-touch 'corporate' interests somewhere. That, enhanced by effective marketing and placements, meant one ran across free Firefox download icons on countless web and forum pages... and the product reviews, aided greatly by aggressive Mozilla marketing, ran hot and heavy in favor of the browser, specifically because it was open source and thus somehow magically free of Microsoft or Netscape corporate-ish influences.

In any case, Firefox's rise to popularity orbited around all of that (marketing and open-source cachet) rather than users worshipping at the altar of "extensions".

lem729

lem729

In any case, Firefox's rise to popularity orbited around all of that (marketing and open-source cachet) rather than users worshipping at the altar of "extensions">

No way. Why does it have to be black/white, either/or. Just like in a dream where an image can have dual motives, the rise of Firefox was always the two -- open source AND extensions. In a way both were a symbols of a "power for the people," a revolution of sorts, in reaction to the closed nature of Internet Explorer, run by Microsoft, the dominant oligarch of the industry. Open source meant a sharing of the code for every man/woman. And extensions provided a delightful exercise of control by the user. Put onto your browser what you choose, and it only affects you, not another. For years Opera ignored at its own peril the "pleasure of power" that extensions gave to users. Google was far more perceptive, and adopted the extensions model for Chrome, whereupon its browser share skyrocketed.