Why would you destroy Opera?

[Deleted User]

Deleted User last edited by

Originally posted by missingno:

@leushino
Opera ASA might be alive, but Opera software (as 'we' love it) has been destroyed. They might "rebuilt" it somehow, but given the current progress (next to none) on three version numbers, it will take way longer than Opera 35.

Well, you know... the longer I live the more I recognize that there are always two sides to an issue (and sometimes more). You can speak for yourself and perhaps for a few dozen others who have complained vociferously for the past few months by using the pronoun WE but that's all you can legitimately do. You do not speak for me nor for others here who appear to believe otherwise. I don't believe that Opera has been destroyed. On the contrary, I think Opera is finally coming alive after being stuck in the same groove for nineteen years. I suppose it's a matter of perspectives.

[elrice]

elrice last edited by

Originally posted by missingno:

@leushino
Opera ASA might be alive, but Opera software (as 'we' love it) has been destroyed. They might "rebuilt" it somehow, but given the current progress (next to none) on three version numbers, it will take way longer than Opera 35.

Missingno... given all the work that has gone on in the back-end (which of course needs to occur before GUI enhancement) I have to say the progress is astounding. I've been amongst the dev community for FF over a decade now as well as working with other browsers as part of my job and I cannot remember EVER seeing such rapid development before.

Well done to the dev team

[zombaytheominous]

zombaytheominous last edited by

Originally posted by leushino:

Originally posted by missingno:

@leushino
Opera ASA might be alive, but Opera software (as 'we' love it) has been destroyed. They might "rebuilt" it somehow, but given the current progress (next to none) on three version numbers, it will take way longer than Opera 35.

Well, you know... the longer I live the more I recognize that there are always two sides to an issue (and sometimes more). You can speak for yourself and perhaps for a few dozen others who have complained vociferously for the past few months by using the pronoun WE but that's all you can legitimately do. You do not speak for me nor for others here who appear to believe otherwise. I don't believe that Opera has been destroyed. On the contrary, I think Opera is finally coming alive after being stuck in the same groove for nineteen years. I suppose it's a matter of perspectives.

Well you lost me here. Surelly people who liked Opera those 18 - 19 years did so for a reason.
And the reason was not that in 2013 it would "come alive" :lol: .
Opera was cutomizable, had more features and options than the rest, had a built in mail client and more than one way to do things. On top of everything else you'd expect from a top browser.
Those "few dozens" who liked Opera until now? Now you're talking like the Chrome fanatics. Way to go
Naturally there's more than one side to an issue and you really shouldn't expect someone else would speak for you (least of all those with a different opinion), nor should you live to an old age to realize it.
As for perspectives, mine inevitably is that of an Opera user. Not a shareholder.

[elrice]

elrice last edited by

Originally posted by ZombayTheOminous:

Well you lost me here. Surelly people who liked Opera those 18 - 19 years did so for a reason.
And the reason was not that in 2013 it would "come alive" :lol: .
Opera was cutomizable, had more features and options than the rest, had a built in mail client and more than one way to do things. On top of everything else you'd expect from a top browser.
Those "few dozens" who liked Opera until now? Now you're talking like the Chrome fanatics. Way to go
Naturally there's more than one side to an issue and you really shouldn't expect someone else would speak for you (least of all those with a different opinion), nor should you live to an old age to realize it.
As for perspectives, mine inevitably is that of an Opera user. Not a shareholder.

Well I guess you've seen it all in your 103 years eh? Now if only you'd stop acting like a 13 year old maybe we could have an adult discussion.

One of Opera's biggest problems is it has been doing things pretty much the same way for those 18 odd years, to the point where Presto was lagging so far behind in the adaption of html5 and css3 just do they could keep bogging the browser down in increasingly irrelevant functions. I'm not saying ALL those features were irrelevant but trying to cater to every geek and niche user was killing Opera. It bred a culture where those who found it confusing or who commonly moved to FF (like myself) because opera was cluttered yet not customizable where it actually needed to be... they were mocked and shunned as the community shrank and became near-sighted.

Now that Opera is finally taking a bold move to rebuild and try and find a better balance between adapting to more rapidly evolving standards, while supporting features used by more than just a tiny percent, that little niche of specialist users are horrified. Personally you should be grateful you had your way for so long... any longer and opera likely would have been looking at extinction just for a few users like yourself.

[missingno]

missingno last edited by

@leushino
That is why I put those quotation marks around 'we' - to exclude people like you. And I am not sure if it includes me, as there is much hate for Opera 15+ by a lot of people here. It's not that I cannot understand their anger to a certain extend neither.

@elrice
Linux view: three numbers up and still no sign of Linux version. So no progress at all. (Not that I would switch if there would be a Linux version.)

[zombaytheominous]

zombaytheominous last edited by

@elrice

103, 13, this is getting a bit stupid.
And it was supposed to be simple: the "Next" thing lacks key features Opera had. To the extent that I'll certainly be switching to another browser. If it's good enough for you (and I believe it is), then you don't use it the way I do. And that's that.

Besides,how come all you have to say is how crappy Opera was? Nothing to say about the "Next" thing, eh?

[Deleted User]

Deleted User last edited by

Originally posted by missingno:

@leushino
That is why I put those quotation marks around 'we' - to exclude people like you. And I am not sure if it includes me, as there is much hate for Opera 15+ by a lot of people here. It's not that I cannot understand their anger to a certain extend neither.

Okay... try to see this current situation from a different perspective. Opera Presto was bloated, it was hardly a blip on the radar with most users (truth is, I can't think of a single acquaintance or family member who ever heard of Opera the browser), and it was not meeting the financial expectations of the stockholders. Something needed to be done. After all... 18 years is a long time to remain hovering around the 3% mark. A rewrite was determined to be the best way to proceed. Now whether you or I agree with that solution, that IS the solution that was determined and all the complaining that is now going on "after the fact" will not change anything. It's an accomplished fact and users are going to have to realize this at some point. I agree that Opera could have been more forthright with its user base in presenting its plans early on. It hinted that such was coming but it did not say so outright and when it happened it took a lot of people by surprise. To its credit it has not completely abandoned the old browser in terms of security updates. Users who find the bare-bones new browser to be too lacking in features can continue to use the older versions, albeit as you correctly pointed out, more and more sites will eventually become incompatible. It's unfortunate but it's reality. What to do?

I cannot see any real "good" choices for users whose work depends upon a feature-rich Opera at this point. About all I could suggest would be to use Firefox for their critical work and try out the new browser and all of its future iterations until such time as it does what they require of a browser. What else (constructive, that is) can be said?

I think if you're brutally honest with yourself, you'll admit that a host of one-time posters signing up for the first time and posting angry diatribes against Opera is counter-productive. Sure, their rants can be explained but they can't be justified. They never added anything to the Opera community down through the years, never paid a dime to Opera and about all they did was use Opera's software free of charge. Now they expect Opera to do exactly what they say and if it doesn't they threaten to leave it for another browser. Does anyone really expect such juvenile behavior to be effective? There are about a dozen knowledgeable opponents who post on the forums daily expressing their dissatisfaction with the new browser. All of them know more than I about software and I readily admit this. However, their knowledge notwithstanding, their complaints are not going to change Opera's direction. Some have argued that their complaints have brought about features being added back (or promised). Maybe and then again, maybe not. The truth is, we have no way of knowing whether or not those features would have been returned since Opera has not given a road map (and it's highly unlikely one will be given). Then there are those who turn their anger on people like me. Obviously I'm a shill... I'm being paid by Opera to put out fires and/or present the other side of the coin, neither of which is true. I'm just an average guy who has used Opera for more than a decade (along with other browsers, I might add). I happen to like the new direction and that makes me both an ignoramus (or as one user puts it - a dumbuser) and an avowed enemy. Why? Another poster has claimed that I am a bully. I had no idea my words were so forceful, so powerful and so threatening that I could bully people into silence. In fact, so far I haven't seen any evidence of her claims.

From my perspective I see Opera as a private corporation which must answer to its shareholders first and foremost. And they've demanded changes and so changes are the order of the day. And really... that's the long and short of it whether we agree or disagree. We can threaten to leave Opera, we can post daily that Opera will be destroyed within a year's time, we can argue that Opera needs to open source its Presto version but in the end... why should Opera listen to non-paying users whose numbers don't really mean much anyway?

Well... that's my ramble. I'm not the enemy here (although I'm sure some of the angrier users think of me that way). I'm just stating things the way I see them.

[elrice]

elrice last edited by

Originally posted by ZombayTheOminous:

@elrice

103, 13, this is getting a bit stupid.
And it was supposed to be simple: the "Next" thing lacks key features Opera had. To the extent that I'll certainly be switching to another browser. If it's good enough for you (and I believe it is), then you don't use it the way I do. And that's that.

Besides,how come all you have to say is how crappy Opera was? Nothing to say about the "Next" thing, eh?

Let me see "Zombay"... Your very first post was to come here and act like a drama queen, your profile lists your age as 103 and your handle is that akin to the users forum flamer. If you want to be taken seriously you certainly started on the wrong foot.

As to how crap Opera was. From the point of a developer and wed designer, Opera 12 and below had too many shortcomings:
* Standards-compliance has been behind all the other browsers (apart from IE until MS began starting to show respect to standards with IE9) - not great when your job is constructing web-sites
* Not even close to configurable enough - open up v12 and enter opera:config and open up FF and type in about:config. Now filter in both by entering "tabs" in the search field.... and you try and tell me with a straight face that Opera was the most customisable browser.
* Stability issues - FF may be more of a memory hog (although running FF on a RAM-Drive - a partition created in the system RAM - takes care of speed) but it has long been the more stable
* Tab management - my session here at work, which is set to auto save, has averaged at over 600 tabs. Now way in hell would v12 or below remain usable under that load of make it easy keep organised with that many tabs
* Lack of 3rd party development community - much of what makes FF the browser of choice for more developers and web-based vocations than any other browser is that there is always a tool or add-in for just about any need. FireFTP rivals many paid-for stand-along FTP clients and it sits in FF on its own tab. I have a session manager which hands-down beats anything native to any browser. I have a web-developer add-in which very nicely complements those already in FF.
* Developer tools - Once upon a time DragonFly was the cream of the crop... that simply isn't the case any more

So for all those issues and more, v12 wasn't close to offering what I needed and I'm far from alone in that regard... I don't know a single web-based developer here in Australia who favours Opera. And no, Opera Next isn't there yet and won't be for a while for full-time adoption by thjos in this field, but I like the direction it is moving in, particularly in much improved rendering and javascript management, and especially in finally embracing the idea of 3rd-part add-in support. Opera has long tried to be everything for everyone and was failing dismally at it and the state of Presto's is a testament to that.

As to general home-usage? For the first time EVER I've been able to start recommending Opera to other general users, and once bookmarks are implemented I'll have no difficulty in converting others, particularly Chrome users, or FF users who are after something lighter and cleaner but who have shunned Chrome. With full bookmarks and better tab management it may well become the default browser at home for myself as well. Far from "destroying" Opera they are finally cutting away some of the crud, while already offering a raft of settings (many of which are at this stage under opera:flags until finalised) which Chrome has never had

[spartaa]

spartaa last edited by

why many people defending - Presto .
when the Opera inc didnt mind at all change it with Webkit?

[elrice]

elrice last edited by

Originally posted by spartaa:

why many people defending - Presto .
when the Opera inc didnt mind at all change it with Webkit?

I think some people have gone into panic mode seeing every the current Opera is at and automatically assuming it will remain in its current state of development. People see the change to WebKit and current stripped-back build and think it all one and the same

[serious]

serious last edited by

Originally posted by spartaa:

why many people defending - Presto .
when the Opera inc didnt mind at all change it with Webkit?

I dont care about presto, I care about the interface and the features it had ... put in whatever engine you want (except trident), but dont take away the features that make my work with opera as productive and smooth as it is, like bookmarks with shortcuts; or even small stuff like the simple small rss-button in the address bar so you dont have to hunt the whole site to find the feed button (I dont care about inbuilt reader, I just want a convenient way to get the feed-url)!

[Lupin-III]

Lupin-III last edited by

Originally posted by leushino:

Originally posted by missingno:

@leushino
Opera ASA might be alive, but Opera software (as 'we' love it) has been destroyed. They might "rebuilt" it somehow, but given the current progress (next to none) on three version numbers, it will take way longer than Opera 35.

Well, you know... the longer I live the more I recognize that there are always two sides to an issue (and sometimes more). You can speak for yourself and perhaps for a few dozen others who have complained vociferously for the past few months by using the pronoun WE but that's all you can legitimately do. You do not speak for me nor for others here who appear to believe otherwise. I don't believe that Opera has been destroyed. On the contrary, I think Opera is finally coming alive after being stuck in the same groove for nineteen years. I suppose it's a matter of perspectives.

When are you going to stop being such a hypocrite?

[elrice]

elrice last edited by

Originally posted by Lupin-III:

Originally posted by leushino:

Originally posted by missingno:

@leushino
Opera ASA might be alive, but Opera software (as 'we' love it) has been destroyed. They might "rebuilt" it somehow, but given the current progress (next to none) on three version numbers, it will take way longer than Opera 35.

Well, you know... the longer I live the more I recognize that there are always two sides to an issue (and sometimes more). You can speak for yourself and perhaps for a few dozen others who have complained vociferously for the past few months by using the pronoun WE but that's all you can legitimately do. You do not speak for me nor for others here who appear to believe otherwise. I don't believe that Opera has been destroyed. On the contrary, I think Opera is finally coming alive after being stuck in the same groove for nineteen years. I suppose it's a matter of perspectives.

"When are you going to stop being such a hypocrite?" he wondered, his glare reflected in the mirror before him

That sounds about right :yes:

[zombaytheominous]

zombaytheominous last edited by

600 tabs, elrice?!
Seriously, nobody's bound to cut their bread with a chainsaw just because you're a lumberjack .

[stiab3]

stiab3 last edited by

I'm one of those who doesn't much like the new Opera - but I hope it's a stepping stone to a much better product.
Well, I hope to see some of the features I like back in Opera soon.
I'd like to be able to delete specific cookies, and set up proxies without it affecting all the browsers I might use.

I guess the lack of having proper "settings" is the one thing I miss. . . and I hope they bring that back soon.

I'll keep an eye on the notes for new releases and see when it's back to being something I can use as a main browser again.

[stng]

stng last edited by

stiab3

I'd like to be able to delete specific cookies, and set up proxies without it affecting all the browsers I might use.
I guess the lack of having proper "settings" is the one thing I miss. . . and I hope they bring that back soon.

http://my.opera.com/community/forums/findpost.pl?id=14867532

[Deleted User]

Deleted User last edited by

Without a bookmark manager (put all my bookmarks on the startpage? say what?) Opera Next is useless to me. I could probably get used to not having the customizations I have made in Opera 12, but unusable bookmarks is a deal killer. Cookie control is a close second. Perhaps when(if) the Opera Next devs address that issue, I'll upgrade. If I haven't found another browser I like better than 12 by then, that is.

At this point in time it kinda feels like Opera actually has been destroyed, though.

[svetivoda]

svetivoda last edited by

Originally posted by stiab3:

I'm one of those who doesn't much like the new Opera - but I hope it's a stepping stone to a much better product.

Just like replacing most valuable member of academy with a baby explaining that we are working with that kid to become a genius. No one ever did anything stupid like that.

[Deleted User]

Deleted User last edited by

Well, I've been an Opera user for many years and have posted many times before on this forum.

For some reason my Opera version 12.16 stopped informing me about new updates. Even when I click on "Check for updates" it says "You are using the latest version of Opera"

So I just installed the latest version 18.0 and I can't believe my eyes. It's like a shadow of its former self. It seems like I can hardly customize anything now. I can't even put the tab bars in the bottom? Or am I missing something?

Also, the wand passwords won't work now if the URL isn't EXACTLY what is in the wand.dat file. In the previous versions you had the option to choose "Save password for the WHOLE SERVER". My wand. dat file is partially useless now in this Opera version.

The combining of the address bar and the search bar was obviously coming, no surprise there at least.

I'm not gonna even look for more drawbacks

I agree with the OP.

[thejrmy]

thejrmy last edited by

Originally posted by leushino:

Originally posted by missingno:

@leushino
That is why I put those quotation marks around 'we' - to exclude people like you. And I am not sure if it includes me, as there is much hate for Opera 15+ by a lot of people here. It's not that I cannot understand their anger to a certain extend neither.

Okay... try to see this current situation from a different perspective. Opera Presto was bloated, it was hardly a blip on the radar with most users (truth is, I can't think of a single acquaintance or family member who ever heard of Opera the browser), and it was not meeting the financial expectations of the stockholders. Something needed to be done. After all... 18 years is a long time to remain hovering around the 3% mark. A rewrite was determined to be the best way to proceed. Now whether you or I agree with that solution, that IS the solution that was determined and all the complaining that is now going on "after the fact" will not change anything. It's an accomplished fact and users are going to have to realize this at some point. I agree that Opera could have been more forthright with its user base in presenting its plans early on. It hinted that such was coming but it did not say so outright and when it happened it took a lot of people by surprise. To its credit it has not completely abandoned the old browser in terms of security updates. Users who find the bare-bones new browser to be too lacking in features can continue to use the older versions, albeit as you correctly pointed out, more and more sites will eventually become incompatible. It's unfortunate but it's reality. What to do?

I cannot see any real "good" choices for users whose work depends upon a feature-rich Opera at this point. About all I could suggest would be to use Firefox for their critical work and try out the new browser and all of its future iterations until such time as it does what they require of a browser. What else (constructive, that is) can be said?

I think if you're brutally honest with yourself, you'll admit that a host of one-time posters signing up for the first time and posting angry diatribes against Opera is counter-productive. Sure, their rants can be explained but they can't be justified. They never added anything to the Opera community down through the years, never paid a dime to Opera and about all they did was use Opera's software free of charge. Now they expect Opera to do exactly what they say and if it doesn't they threaten to leave it for another browser. Does anyone really expect such juvenile behavior to be effective? There are about a dozen knowledgeable opponents who post on the forums daily expressing their dissatisfaction with the new browser. All of them know more than I about software and I readily admit this. However, their knowledge notwithstanding, their complaints are not going to change Opera's direction. Some have argued that their complaints have brought about features being added back (or promised). Maybe and then again, maybe not. The truth is, we have no way of knowing whether or not those features would have been returned since Opera has not given a road map (and it's highly unlikely one will be given). Then there are those who turn their anger on people like me. Obviously I'm a shill... I'm being paid by Opera to put out fires and/or present the other side of the coin, neither of which is true. I'm just an average guy who has used Opera for more than a decade (along with other browsers, I might add). I happen to like the new direction and that makes me both an ignoramus (or as one user puts it - a dumbuser) and an avowed enemy. Why? Another poster has claimed that I am a bully. I had no idea my words were so forceful, so powerful and so threatening that I could bully people into silence. In fact, so far I haven't seen any evidence of her claims.

From my perspective I see Opera as a private corporation which must answer to its shareholders first and foremost. And they've demanded changes and so changes are the order of the day. And really... that's the long and short of it whether we agree or disagree. We can threaten to leave Opera, we can post daily that Opera will be destroyed within a year's time, we can argue that Opera needs to open source its Presto version but in the end... why should Opera listen to non-paying users whose numbers don't really mean much anyway?

Well... that's my ramble. I'm not the enemy here (although I'm sure some of the angrier users think of me that way). I'm just stating things the way I see them.

I ain't readin' all that. Opera ain't what it was and that's that. Someone went and neutered it! In its current state, it's a poor man's Chrome. If anybody here's happy with this "update" then I'm not sure why they were using Opera in the first place.