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why did opera browser change like this?

  • Is someone deliberately trying to have us move to some other browser?
    Opera was my browser of choice for 10 years or so, I really tried this new version for few weeks but I just can not get it why you can give us this unfinished product as upgrade ....
    list of things I mis the most
    -scrolling trough tabs with right mouse button pressed + mouse wheel
    -built in notes
    -not having to wait for other tabs to load when I click on those
    -opera 12 looking and working speed dial

    (edited title to be more descriptive )

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  • I'm not sure it's legit as I don't speak Russian, but here is a statement from Opera Software co-founder and former CEO, Jon Stephenson von Tetzchner:

    «The reason for dropping Presto was indeed funding. The current management did not want to do the necessary investments to ensure that Presto stays ahead of the game. The interest has been more in mobile ads and the operator business and in fact Opera has invested heavily there, buying multiple companies at serious premiums».

    «I do not know if killing Presto means killing Opera. I think it was wrong to do, though, and I think Opera would have had more users if the company had continued to invest in its products. I also think that the current product direction is wrong, independent of kernel. We built a great product, focusing on the user, with really useful features. Now that has changed».

    http://www.reddit.com/r/operabrowser/comments/1pephp/opera_software_cofounder_and_former_ceo_about/

  • Perhaps von Tetzchner was simply out of step with the times. It may be that his vision is partly what kept Opera as a browser suite that was not even on the radar of most users worldwide and perennially at 3% or lower. Who can really say? But he's gone and while he's entitled to his opinions, that's all they are. Furthermore, I don't agree that "Opera would have had more users if the company had continued to invest in its products" (i.e. Presto). The facts do not support that view. In fact, they suggest just the opposite.

  • Personally I think that the number of users of a particular browser has more to do with the (aggressive) marketing that come with it than with the browser itself.

  • Originally posted by STAROSS:

    Personally I think that the number of users of a particular browser has more to do with the (aggressive) marketing that come with it than with the browser itself.

    I think the same. Since Opera never had any effective marketing campaign, or at least not an aggressive one, the people who chose Opera were knowledgeable. They had done some research to get to know about Opera. They had specifically downloaded the program to try it out and found the reasons to stay with it. So, they stayed with Opera because of what Opera actually is/was, not because it was heavily pushed or promoted like all other major browsers are.

    The closest I can remember Opera having a big marketing campaign was when v.7 or 7.5 was released. I saw reviews and promotional articles in many places. Back then they touted what they called "setups": downloadable interface configurations, along with skins. The interface configuration files made the browser completely change the buttons, keyboard shortcuts and menus. This way, if you preferred the look of some other browser or any other app, you could get that look in a snap, while the underlying program remained Opera. I believe Opera's market share increased at that time a lot, even though I don't have official figures. The number of members in these forums certainly began to increase rapidly.

    Now, what feature or gimmick would attract people to Chropera from any other browser? Somebody said this is the mother of all questions 🙂 The best answer thus far I have seen - millions of Chrome, FF & IE users eagerly searching for a new browser see Opera Next and say, Wow man this offers much less features than mine and lets make it my default browser.

  • Ah. Then all that is needed now is for Opera to develop an aggressive marketing campaign and it has it made. I'll pass this on to management. And to think that for 18 years Opera couldn't figure this out. Very odd.
    :whistle:

  • Originally posted by leushino:

    Ah. Then all that is needed now is for Opera to develop an aggressive marketing campaign and it has it made. I'll pass this on to management. And to think that for 18 years Opera couldn't figure this out. Very odd.
    :whistle:

    I'm putting my point again so that even you should be able to grasp it. And perhaps then answer to the actual point.

    Aggressive marketing campaign is for those very big companies with products whose market share is based largely on that marketing itself, i.e. hot air. In contrast, Opera's fame was based on its actual feature set, instead of campaigning. Now that the features are gone and there's no campaigning going on, how do you justify your belief that Opera will make it big soon? You keep saying that Opera ASA will have big success now that they moved to Blink, but you consistently failed to even remotely hint how Opera's increase of user base would come about.

    I justify my lack of belief in the company's future with these facts:

    - Their flagship product has no features to base a promotional campaign on. It has no features compared to any other current browser, and feature-wise it compares appallingly to the Presto versions.
    - There is no campaign going on as we speak and, historically, their campaigns never made that much of a difference. The biggest difference I noticed was at about v.7.5 but also this arguably didn't even make a footnote in the history of browsers.
    - Given above facts, they either lack ideas or resources for any campaigning. Possibly both. Plus they also very likely lack ideas to develop the product itself.

    Therefore no bright future. Now your turn. How do you justify your belief that a commercial miracle is about to happen?

  • Originally posted by ersi:

    Aggressive marketing campaign is for those very big companies with products whose market share is based largely on that marketing itself, i.e. hot air. In contrast, Opera's fame was based on its actual feature set, instead of campaigning. Now that the features are gone and there's no campaigning going on, how do you justify your belief that Opera will make it big soon?

    This is exactly what I said when the new version of Opera first came out. Why are people suddenly going to migrate over to it? Nobody seems to be able to explain this.

    I used Opera up to 12.16 because of its great features and customisability - things that other browsers either couldn't compete with, or they could only compete when using extensions and add-ons. There was no reason for me to switch to another browser + extensions though, because Opera did everything I need. When I showed Opera to friends and said "it can do this and this", some of them switched to it too. Now that those features are gone, I have no reason to use it and neither do my friends, but why should I/they stick with Opera? Just because of the name? No, that's not how it works.

    Opera might evolve back into something that makes me think "yeah, this is just what I need", but right now it's miles away from that and it's not just that the devs need time to add features - that's a given - it's that the devs have clearly said that Opera is going down a new path now.

  • Originally posted by inherkhau:

    Is someone deliberately trying to have us move to some other browser?
    Opera was my browser of choice for 10 years or so, I really tried this new version for few weeks but I just can not get it why you can give us this unfinished product as upgrade ....
    list of things I mis the most
    -scrolling trough tabs with right mouse button pressed + mouse wheel
    -built in notes
    -not having to wait for other tabs to load when I click on those
    -opera 12 looking and working speed dial

    (edited title to be more descriptive )

    This is why I considered moving to another browser, but all of them fail and run like crap like Firefox and chrome. Further more if opera keeps changing their browser, they will not gain a huge fan base more like dislikes, I hope some one at opera's management team have realized this? I hope this is the final big move, I really don't wanna see opera change engines to gecko, I am sick of it.

  • I am just speechless, we - users that have used opera for so long have not used it because it offered same as the rest but than with red O button, how can someone from opera give us this new product and think we are not going to mis all the stuff that made opera so special ... I am clueless

  • Originally posted by ersi:

    Originally posted by leushino:

    I'm putting my point again** so that even you should be able to grasp it**. And perhaps then answer to the actual point.

    Sarcasm is frequently employed when people are angry. Are you angry? If so, you might want to seek help since anger can destroy one's life.

    Aggressive marketing campaign is for those very big companies with products whose market share is based largely on that marketing itself, i.e. hot air. In contrast, Opera's fame was based on its actual feature set, instead of campaigning. Now that the features are gone and there's no campaigning going on, how do you justify your belief that Opera will make it big soon? You keep saying that Opera ASA will have big success now that they moved to Blink, but you consistently failed to even remotely hint how Opera's increase of user base would come about.

    Yes, I'm aware of all of this. My previous statement was made with tongue in cheek regarding another's claim that Opera's 18 years of 3% was the result of a lack of marketing. Opera never had any "fame" as you put it. If that were so, word of mouth on the internet would have brought in droves of users over those 18 years. But it never happened because Opera's feature set, as you put it, was seen as too geeky, too convoluted, too bloated out of the box to be worthwhile. And saddled as it was with an email client did not help matters either.

    I justify my lack of belief in the company's future with these facts:

    - Their flagship product has no features to base a promotional campaign on. It has no features compared to any other current browser, and feature-wise it compares appallingly to the Presto versions.
    - There is no campaign going on as we speak and, historically, their campaigns never made that much of a difference. The biggest difference I noticed was at about v.7.5 but also this arguably didn't even make a footnote in the history of browsers.
    - Given above facts, they either lack ideas or resources for any campaigning. Possibly both. Plus they also very likely lack ideas to develop the product itself.

    Therefore no bright future. Now your turn. How do you justify your belief that a commercial miracle is about to happen?

    And I respond that it is too early to make predictions. It lacks some features at this time because it is still early in its development. I recognize something that you seem unwilling to accept. Opera is not turning back. There are times in this life that we make decisions and once made there is no turning back. Opera, as the small company you have described, does not have the resources to simply toss out months of work and return to Presto. The Presto version is dead and no amount of clever arguments to the contrary will change that simply fact. And it's always been simple right from the start: people either accept that this is the new Opera and try to adapt to the changes OR they continue with an older Opera browser (that they loved so much) and watch the development of the new browser take place OR they leave and find another browser. But posting negative comments day after day after day does not serve anyone including themselves. What is the point? Do you envision the developers and shareholders all gathered around our words in these community forums, hanging off our every statement and wringing their hands in despair. "We've made a terrible mistake." Uh... hardly. Your clever arguments only serve yourself and the others who are upset and angry but in the end? Nothing.

  • Originally posted by inherkhau:

    ... I am clueless

    Indeed. You need to educate yourself on what Opera is doing. Go to the developer blogs and read about the new Opera. Hanging around here and listening to the negative speeches will only further confuse you.

  • Originally posted by leushino:

    Yes, I'm aware of all of this. My previous statement was made with tongue in cheek regarding another's claim that Opera's 18 years of 3% was the result of a lack of marketing. Opera never had any "fame" as you put it. If that were so, word of mouth on the internet would have brought in droves of users over those 18 years.

    There was a point there that I tried to convey twice in a row, but you still interpreted it exactly the opposite way. Maybe you are too much tongue-in-cheek, sarcastic, angry, etc. while I'm now carefully presenting the point for you again, for the third time in another way. I have given up hope now that you will get the point, but I'm doing it anyway, out of sheer kindness.

    You are misinterpreting the 3% market share as small. It is not small. Let's go over the reasons why it's not small.

    First, it's millions of users that have kept the company not just afloat, but expanding for 18 years.
    Second, the expansion has been achieved without any notable marketing campaign in a very competitive market situation.
    Third, it's been achieved by word of mouth, meaning that people chose Opera for what it really is, not because of its popularity or such.
    Fourth, most of the market is full of advertising. The popularity of the biggest browsers is backed up by the stock value of the company behind it, instead of being based on the features of the product. There are those who can tell the difference between hot air and the quality of the product. And besides seeing through the smokescreen, it still takes some effort to make a conscious informed choice. Consequently, the number of users of the kind of product that Opera Presto is could never have been very big. People who make conscious choices are not many. And then there are some of those who specifically go for obscure products rather than the big names.

    Given all this, the market share Opera had was a considerable achievement. It's not a small market share, but quite adequate, reflecting the nature of Opera itself, a niche product. Still, it has been mentioned along with the big ones. It's the smallest of the big browsers, but still among the big. A remarkable achievement indeed.

    What the company is doing now is throwing all this away. Instead of keeping the status as the smallest among the big, they are now producing something that identifies as Chrome/Chromium in the browser statistics. No developer has any reason to test websites against something that is just another Chrome. How can the user base grow now? Obviously it can only shrink.

    You protest to this conclusion by giving two contradictory answers:
    1. Too early to make predictions.
    2. Opera will become a great success. There are only a handful of whiners.

    What should I make of this? As you have said a few times, there are far too many blessings in your life, so coherence is utterly irrelevant to you.

  • Truly speaking it comes to this, Opera Team is giving up loyal users and trying to have new users instead hoping there will be more of them. Sad but thats the way life goes. I'm the one who feel betrayed but hey... you do not owe me enything.

  • I doubt they really think they will have a lot of new users, they are more likely just cutting the costs:

    Opera Software co-founder and former CEO, Jon Stephenson von Tetzchner:

    «The reason for dropping Presto was indeed funding. The current management did not want to do the necessary investments to ensure that Presto stays ahead of the game. The interest has been more in mobile ads and the operator business and in fact Opera has invested heavily there, buying multiple companies at serious premiums».

  • Originally posted by svetivoda:

    Truly speaking it comes to this, Opera Team is giving up loyal users and trying to have new users instead hoping there will be more of them. Sad but thats the way life goes. I'm the one who feel betrayed but hey... you do not owe me enything.

    Indeed... Opera does not owe you anything. You use their software free of charge. It is you who owe them. Unless you are a shareholder with a financial stake in the company, you really have no right to feel betrayed.

  • Originally posted by ersi:

    Originally posted by leushino:

    There was a point there that I tried to convey twice in a row, but you still interpreted it exactly the opposite way. Maybe you are too much tongue-in-cheek, sarcastic, angry, etc. while I'm now carefully presenting the point for you again, for the third time in another way. I have given up hope now that you will get the point, but I'm doing it anyway, out of sheer kindness.

    (snipped)

    What the company is doing now is throwing all this away. Instead of keeping the status as the smallest among the big, they are now producing something that identifies as Chrome/Chromium in the browser statistics. No developer has any reason to test websites against something that is just another Chrome. How can the user base grow now? Obviously it can only shrink.

    You protest to this conclusion by giving two contradictory answers:
    1. Too early to make predictions.
    2. Opera will become a great success. There are only a handful of whiners.

    What should I make of this? As you have said a few times, there are far too many blessings in your life, so coherence is utterly irrelevant to you.

    Well, what "I" make of this is that you frequently resort to personal attacks when others happen to disagree with you. And your attacks become rather nasty. Furthermore your prognostications evidently mean very little to Opera as a company and to several others on this forum who happen to hold a difference of opinion. You see... here's the thing. When someone happens to disagree with your cleverly constructed arguments, that does not necessarily translate into that person being an imbecile and incapable of following them. In truth, holding to such a position (as you do) simply indicates that you are somewhat arrogant (i.e. if he/she cannot agree with me [and I am always right], ergo, he/she must be mentally deficient). In a word: no.

    In addition (there's always an addition, eh?), it doesn't really matter what "you" think or "how" you present your arguments. You have no authority where Opera is concerned. You have no persuasive influence on the company's decisions. And in case you haven't noticed, the company is proceeding with the development of the new browser "in spite of your arguments." Evidently they also do not hold your opinions.

    An aside: having blessings in one's life has no relevant connection with being capable or incapable of following a coherently constructed argument. In my case I simply happen to disagree with you.

    And now it seems to me that there is little point in continuing this discussion. You always resort to personal attacks and I don't appreciate that. So I wish you well. Good-bye.

  • Wrong! I do not owe them anything becouse it is my support (and others like me, of course) who make Opera what it is and makes them money. Certainly do not expect to be payed 🙂 but I DO NOT owe them anything and I'm free to go on and look for really advances browser as Opera used to be.

    "I think this is the end of a beautiful friendship!"

    Nothing more - nothing less.

    ;Edited only to change "enything" to "anything"

  • Originally posted by svetivoda:

    Wrong! I do not owe them anything becouse it is my support (and others like me, of course) who make Opera what it is and makes them money. Certainly do not expect to be payed 🙂 but I DO NOT owe them enything and I'm free to go on and look for really advances browser as Opera used to be.

    "I think this is the end of a beautiful friendship!"

    Nothing more - nothing less.

    This is my point with changing the browser engine your gona piss a lot of people off changing the browser engine every so often I really hope this the end of that. Also before changing the browser should take a community vote I have never seen a poll on the engine change, then again, Opea can do what they want right? Also I think they were unique with their own engine. They need their own engine that's faster than the chrome engine cause really chrome just don't cut it; I hope Oprea does not add any worse crap from chrome like their extensions. they have exploits that may cripple Opera also chrome spys on the user. I never new Opera to spy but Google does and that's a fact I hope Oprea is not on board with this that would be sad if they were?

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