Jon von Tetzchner, Opera's founder and former CEO spoke to The Register
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Deleted User last edited by
Originally posted by serious:
to quote asterix: "and thus caesar gloriously advanced backwards"
That seems a fitting remark to conclude this thread on the fate of the Presto Opera Browser.
Posterity will find it a huge improvement over its successor.
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aj2gj last edited by
Does anyone have a non-machine-translated version of the heise.de interview (http://www.heise.de/ct/artikel/Jon-von-Tetzchner-Opera-haette-viel-mehr-erreichen-koennen-2108809.html)? The Google translation is not one of the best Google translations I've seen, and I'd be interested in reading a human-translated version. If it were in French I'd be willing to post a translation myself, but alas, I don't speak German.
Needless to say, these interviews are of interest to me as a longtime Opera user and current Opera 12 user, even if the Register isn't the greatest tech site in the world. I'd inclined to agree with what von Tetzschner is saying since his assertions on the direction of the company seem to correspond with what I've observed over the past few years. I'm still curious to see what the revenue plan for Vivaldi is. The prospect of a Vivaldi browser is certainly interesting. I wouldn't be surprised if it wound up being more appealing to myself and other Opera power users than Opera Blink is, if it really is being developed.
I am confused by rafaelluik's statement that Opera now has the resources to do a properly integrated user interface. To be fair, I've heard that there have been glitches with the UI in Opera Presto on Mac. But if Opera can do a better-integrated UI now, why isn't Opera Blink available on Linux? Google has Blink running on Linux, so it seems like the UI layer must be the issue. As I primarily use Windows now, it doesn't really matter to me at this point, but the UI certainly doesn't seem more integrated across platforms than on Opera 12.
Originally posted by rafaelluik:
Sometimes innovation is achieved by simplicity. Finding the right spot to include a button, figuring out how things should look and behave to match user expectations (so he/she won't actually need heavy customization) and to build a concise non-redundant/bloated interface, etc, are valuable characteristics.
I disagree with this. Not because innovation can't include simplicity - it can. But the examples - getting rid of customization, making the interface concise - just seem like a synonym for the power-user despised term of "streamlining". In software, streamlining often corresponds with removing customization options and more advanced features, which in turn is bad for anyone who used those. I'm not opposed to making the default user interface more convenient to new users. But throwing out the previous innovations is not innovation, and that's what Opera Blink has done. A lot of those innovations are useful, so it's no wonder so many people don't like Opera Blink.
To look at a non-browser example, the switch to Opera Blink has been akin to if GIMP were to switch to a Paint .NET interface because it would simpler for new users, and half of GIMP's features would be missing in the new version as a result. I won't dispute that as a casual user of imaging programs, Paint .NET is a lot less intimidating. But if I were a GIMP power user, I'd vehemently stick with the old version in such a scenario. Would GIMP gain users with such a move? Possibly. But I would argue that such a simplification would be the wrong decision, and likewise I agree with Jon that Opera's real-world example of this has also been the wrong move.
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blackbird71 last edited byOriginally posted by aj2gj:
...
Originally posted by rafaelluik:
Sometimes innovation is achieved by simplicity. Finding the right spot to include a button, figuring out how things should look and behave to match user expectations (so he/she won't actually need heavy customization) and to build a concise non-redundant/bloated interface, etc, are valuable characteristics.
I disagree with this. Not because innovation can't include simplicity - it can. But the examples - getting rid of customization, making the interface concise - just seem like a synonym for the power-user despised term of "streamlining". In software, streamlining often corresponds with removing customization options and more advanced features, which in turn is bad for anyone who used those. I'm not opposed to making the default user interface more convenient to new users. But throwing out the previous innovations is not innovation, and that's what Opera Blink has done. A lot of those innovations are useful, so it's no wonder so many people don't like Opera Blink. ...
+1. If innovation allows preservation of alternate, effective ways of accomplishing work, then incorporating simplicity has merit. But if simplicity involves obliteration of alternate ways of doing things, then it becomes a battle of will: the designer's "new and simple" way of doing something versus all those users who have found alternate ways of doing the thing differently and, to them, more effectively. I believe this is the very essence of the frustration of many long-time users with Opera thus far. But it really devolves down into how one intrinsically views a browser: many long-time users see it as a necessarily configurable tool; many developers now see it as a "portal" for content delivery and slick "user experiences"; many browser corporate managers see it as a click-countable revenue stream producer to balance their books. In the digital world as it now stands, those second and third perspectives are linked and now dominate things... the first perspective carries little weight any more.
Not that any of this matters, really. Opera is walking down the path it has chosen, to wherever that may lead. We can either follow along (from "a distance" if need-be), or we can take a different path. Regardless, I don't think Opera is listening to user complaints here any more...
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Deleted User last edited by
Originally posted by blackbird71:
Not that any of this matters, really. Opera is walking down the path it has chosen, to wherever that may lead. We can either follow along (from "a distance" if need-be), or we can take a different path. Regardless, I don't think Opera is listening to user complaints here any more...
And therein (not that it matters) lies the simple fact that has escaped (and continues to do so) the realization of most of the naysayers. It doesn't matter. You're either on board or you're not. The registered complaints (while seemingly great) is but an insignificant number in comparison to actual Opera uses and there is no way at present to determine how many Opera users will bolt for another browser based upon these complaints and how many will simply "go with the flow" and learn to adapt their browsing habits to the features provided (or not provided) by the Blink browser.
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fluxrev last edited by
Originally posted by leushino:
Originally posted by blackbird71:
Not that any of this matters, really. . . . . I don't think Opera is listening to user complaints here any more...
And therein (not that it matters) lies the simple fact that has escaped (and continues to do so) the realization of most of the naysayers. It doesn't matter.
There have been a number of comments along these lines---i.e., that Opera has chosen a development path from which there will be very little deviation, and the time has long since passed where complaints here might have an impact on that path, and so there's no point in making complaints (especially of the obstreperous, irrational, or whiny kind) about it---but this assessment assumes that the belief that they are or may be a force for constructive change is the primary motivation for many/most of the complainers' posts over the last several months. I think, however, that reason and evidence suggest that the primary motivation is to satisfy the complainers' need to share their feelings, which include not only the basic displeasure that is aroused when something that someone has become attached to is taken away from them but also the desire to take the expression of that displeasure up a notch by spitting in Opera's face (and of course the faces of forum members who don't seem to respect their anger/frustration). Therefore, to point out that the complainers are wasting their time because they're not accomplishing anything (useful) is somewhat beside the point.
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blackbird71 last edited by
Originally posted by fluxrev:
... I think, however, that reason and evidence suggest that the primary motivation is to satisfy the complainers' need to share their feelings, which include not only the basic displeasure that is aroused when something that someone has become attached to is taken away from them but also the desire to take the expression of that displeasure up a notch by spitting in Opera's face (and of course the faces of forum members who don't seem to respect their anger/frustration). Therefore, to point out that the complainers are wasting their time because they're not accomplishing anything (useful) is somewhat beside the point.
But wouldn't that behavior constitute precisely what "whining", "attacking", and "b***hing" are considered to be? I don't see anywhere in the forum's rules and conduct code that the forum exists as an appropriate place to ventilate whatever primal scream a user feels he needs to emit, as a place to unleash obscenity-laced condemnations, nor to harshly attack Opera (or anyone else) in a "spit-in-the-face" manner. Perhaps some of us are just giving 'complainers' the benefit of the doubt...
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fluxrev last edited by
Originally posted by blackbird71:
But wouldn't that behavior constitute precisely what "whining", "attacking", and "b***hing" are considered to be?
Not sure exactly what you're saying here, but I'll respond by saying that I think "whining" and "attacking" could in some cases actually be intended by the author and/or construed by a reader as an effort to bring about constructive change (regardless of how effective or not such efforts may in fact be) and in other cases be intended/construed as pure venting, with no practical purpose. The majority, I believe, fall into the latter category.
Originally posted by blackbird71:
I don't see anywhere in the forum's rules and conduct code that the forum exists as an appropriate place to ventilate whatever primal scream a user feels he needs to emit, as a place to unleash obscenity-laced condemnations, nor to harshly attack Opera (or anyone else) in a "spit-in-the-face" manner.
I agree, though the extent to which the rules are enforced may matter as much or more than the rules themselves.
Originally posted by blackbird71:
Perhaps some of us are just giving 'complainers' the benefit of the doubt...
Yes, and some of them deserve it. Many clearly don't. But, hey, if Opera ASA doesn't care that their desktop forum has become a locus of whines and fulminations serving no practical purpose---and they obviously don't (at least, not in a serious way)---then I'm certainly not going to lose any sleep over it.
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Deleted User last edited by
And some of them deserve it? I see... according to ??? oh... according to you. So if I have this correct, you are the measure of all things here, determining who should have his/her face spit upon and who should warrant a pass? That makes perfect sense. Well, as long as you're not losing any sleep over it, it's all good.
BTW, feel free to spit away. It will all be gone in a matter of 12 days and as has been mentioned -it doesn't matter anyway. :whistle:
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fluxrev last edited by
Originally posted by leushino:
And some of them deserve it? I see... according to ??? oh... according to you. So if I have this correct, you are the measure of all things here, determining who should have his/her face spit upon and who should warrant a pass? Yeah. That makes perfect sense. Well, as long as you're not losing any sleep over it, it's all good.
And feel free to spit away. It will all be gone in a matter of 12 days and as has been mentioned: it doesn't matter anyway.
leushino, you're way off base here. Totally misunderstood my point. Read the last part of my post again, including blackbird71's statement that I quoted and was responding to. I'm actually less generous in my interpretation of inflammatory posts than your comrade-in-arms (whom I also respect, to be clear) blackbird71 is. As for accusing me of claiming to be "the measure of all things" here, well, let's just say I think you're walking on thin ice there.
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Deleted User last edited by
The forums are in existence to HELP users with the browser. What part of that simple intention do you fail to understand. This is not a place to bitch, whine, complain, threaten, bully, and spit in another's face. The good thing is - it's all coming to an end (thank you, thank you). Hopefully whatever is left according to the ptb will be heavily moderated and complaints, whines, belly-aching, threats to abandon etc etc will be once and for all dealt with.
You can think whatever you like, fluxrev. Your attempts to put a more positive spin on your previous outrageous statements is laughable but I commend you for creativity. The truth is, I've wasted time by responding to you. -
stevenjcee last edited byOriginally posted by leushino:
The forums are in existence to HELP users with the browser. What part of that simple intention do you fail to understand. This is not a place to bitch, whine, complain, threaten, bully, and spit in another's face.
Some of you guys keep insisting that this is only to help users with technical problems, which is what some of you have taken on as your mission, (as well as castigating all those you deem worthy of your scorn), yet you are wrong & misguided, that is unless you aren't referring to Opera's own mission statement as to the purpose of this forum:
"Welcome to the Opera forums - a place for you to get in touch with other Opera users for discussions, troubleshooting, and sharing ideas. Opera employees are active in the forums and will sometimes respond to questions and comments."
So, discussing & sharing ideas is ALSO what this forum is about, and I didn't see anywhere, a provision for vigilantes to determine who's posts are worthy of existence in this forum.
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fluxrev last edited by
Originally posted by leushino:
You can think whatever you like, fluxrev. Your attempts to put a more positive spin on your previous outrageous statements is laughable but I commend you for creativity.
Wow. After your unfathomable misinterpretation of my very clear point, I directed you right to the plain, clear truth of what had been said---and you still completely failed to see it!
EDITED TO SAY: I take it back: You're not smarter than this.
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Deleted User last edited by
Originally posted by leushino:
The truth is, I've wasted time by responding to you.
Given the 2312 comments you have written so far (many as smug and polemical as the ones in this thread), you must have a quite a lot of time on your hands.
Originally posted by leushino:
It will all be gone in a matter of 12 days and as has been mentioned -it doesn't matter anyway.
And in your case, this one-way trip into oblivion seems certainly cause for relieve.
However, I have the terrible feeling that you are already haunting Jon von Tetzchner vivaldi.net:
one 'JamesD' posts there, whose uses the same self-portrait icon as you.Be warned, all who transfer there.
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Deleted User last edited by
Gotta love the IGNORE function. Appears the peanut gallery are enjoying their final days in the sun. I have this mental image of rabid dogs, frothing at the... (sigh). Sleep tight, Gentlemen. :whistle:
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fluxrev last edited by
Originally posted by leushino:
Gotta love the IGNORE function.
You can fool yourself with that one, leushino, but you're not fooling anyone else here. Defending Opera Blink every five minutes is your raison d'etre.
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biggerabalone last edited by
rafaelluik said:
"The switch to using Chromium was an engineering-led decision, not a management decision to cut costs".
yet then he said:
"I see it differently. Instead of investing endlessly in Presto ... the management chose to do heavy investment in the switch to Chromium"
interesting
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biggerabalone last edited by
Originally posted by leushino:
Gotta love the IGNORE function. Appears the peanut gallery are enjoying their final days in the sun. I have this mental image of rabid dogs, frothing at the... (sigh). Sleep tight, Gentlemen. :whistle:
by peanut gallery, i suppose you mean opera's loyal core users? you, as i recall in another thread, have just went over to internet explorer (sigh).
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A Former User last edited by
Originally posted by biggerabalone:
rafaelluik said:
"The switch to using Chromium was an engineering-led decision, not a management decision to cut costs".
yet then he said:
"I see it differently. Instead of investing endlessly in Presto ... the management chose to do heavy investment in the switch to Chromium"
interesting
So you can't imagine a situation where the engineers come up with an idea, decide to go with it and then the management agrees with them?
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Deleted User last edited by
Originally posted by rafaelluik:
Originally posted by biggerabalone:
rafaelluik said:
"The switch to using Chromium was an engineering-led decision, not a management decision to cut costs".
yet then he said:
"I see it differently. Instead of investing endlessly in Presto ... the management chose to do heavy investment in the switch to Chromium"
interesting
So you can't imagine a situation where the engineers come up with an idea, decide to go with it and then the management agrees with them?
For sure, I can imagine a situation where engineers came up with the idea for having a good reason to leave Opera ASA :left:
Besides, there is a management for each department.
Engineers have also their manager and you can only hope that the team tinkering on this shell has an engineer as manager :devil: -
blackbird71 last edited by
Any interpretation is possible until you actually work in the company and see how its management really operates. While "past performance will not always provide a guarantee of future results", it often gives a pretty good clue - unless there's been a sudden shakeup or buyout. In some companies, an idea from engineering can climb all the way to the top, getting approval/sponsorship from management all the way. In other companies, 'ideas' come from marketing and are shoved down to engineering to "find a way", then a like-minded engineering manager pushes the idea back up the chain with the background support/sponsorship of marketing's management. I don't pretend to know which way Opera ASA operates on something of this magnitude... and I'll keep my peace on my guess.
