Search Engine Default

stealth789

stealth789

You're suggesting Opera provide a setting to allow a user to set a custom default search engine not already on Opera's default list... that's all well and good, and you've stated your case at length. But realize that a setting implies a mechanism to implement the setting, and that implies a browser architecture perhaps altered to support the mechanism. And all of that implies effort and resources to implement, debug, and test for security. Balance that against Opera's suggestion of a user simply prefixing his search with a single letter to call up an ordinary custom search engine, a path which costs no resources to implement, other than user convenience. I gave up coding some years ago, but in those days, responding to a meritorious safety-impacting suggestion that had an easy existing alternative received much less priority and attention than responding to one that represented a genuine crisis.

In the first hand, from what I've read there's also problem and huge against with adding even safe engines by Opera. So then question of security of mechanism to change engine is just, let's say food for thought. If your arguments are strictly about security of mechanism, than adding safe engine wouldn't be an issue you know.

But about mechanism itself and architecture. Here I'll write some of my assumptions, as I didn't debug code or whatever. Just take some looks to how things works. Basically Chromium use file Web Data (SQLite) where all engines are stored. Default and Custom. Opera use the same file. They just decided, that only custom engines will be there. Still as Opera is Based on Chromium, I think main core of things will be similar. Only source will be different. Opera have default search engines stored in file "C:\Program Files (x86)\Opera\22.0.1471.70\resources\default_partner_content.json". So from structure of file I presume, that if Opera will decide, they can simply add any number of search engines. They just decided to select 5. But sure, maybe even this number is hard-coded, who knows. When I delete this file, only Google will be used. This indicates it's hard-coded in opera.exe. Basically if file is modified or deleted, revert back to google = kind of failsafe. So basically this whole mechanism is working. No need to change architecture here. Then there's problem with usage. This file itself has comment with some key. It looks like some kind of code Base64 encoded. Also if Web Data there are records in table meta, like: Default Search Provider Keyword, Default Search Provider Keyword Hash. And hash looks again like some Base64 encoded key.
So in principle, mechanism is kind of abstract. The only problem is to be able to hash this. But basically if software itself can hash this. Than it can be possible to hash it again when you need to change it. Because it still has to be opened to changes. Sure maybe this files are hashed in Opera, or while updating and using info from PC like ID of CPU, HD. But still if onlu security is issue, allow users to edit this file, even with some kind of way to hash it. Then arguments about "standard" users, and their safety will be useless.

At the end of the day, Opera's browser currently 'is what it is'. You've offered and defended your suggestion, and it's been discussed and hopefully Opera will consider it. In the meantime, you have a choice: use Opera and its preset search engine defaults as-is, use an extension 'fix' with Opera, install a regular custom search engine and prefix your searches with a single letter, or use another browser that allows you to set your own custom default engine.

I knew about all of my options before. Still it's not topic, and not reason why not.

lem729

lem729

I defer to Opera on safety issues. So let's hope they look at the issue and decide what they can safely do. i want them, though, to protect me. I look to Opera for that safety determination. I don't want them to offer unsafe search engines. I think what Blackbird71 has said is that when Opera balances priorities -- dealing with issues that need immediately programming, and this one where people can use any search engine they want if they type one letter in front of the search -- it may not be the highest priority to be adding additional default search engines. There is an alternative procedure -- typing the one letter in front of the additional search -- which can work and is not unduly burdensome.

blackbird71

blackbird71

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But default search engine is not the biggest issue, like you proclaim it to be. Also as I wrote. Take a look at these default search engines. How "safe" they really are. Still you're excusing change due to security reasons. You're mixing layers and priorities of security and customization. Default search engine is "big" deal (you don't care in what way it can be changed), but you don't care about JavaScript, Cookies, and o lot of other things. But default search engine sure, it's something different? No it's not.
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Hijacking is here from long time ago. Still it didn't stopped browsers from changing default search engines, and reduce itself to useless software. You're proclaiming, like it's something that was invented just now. So now we have to force you, restrict? ... So where is the security here? I should be glad? That I can't change engine to safer one? Ok, you maybe are. I and many others are not. Fact that I'm stuck with default settings is not making anything safer like you said.

I nowhere "proclaimed" default search engines to be the 'biggest' issue. I simply noted that it is a security-related issue, and explained that Opera took the design action that it did regarding that for the reasons it has long-ago stated. Other security issues are just that: other ones, and whether Opera should address them or has addressed them, and how, are subjects for other discussions. Neither am I "excusing" anything, I'm simply explaining what Opera has multiple times stated, and some added aspects of the situation that I know to be true.

You started this thread (and your other one) on the subject of default search engines, and I've merely discussed it within the confines of that topic. Either there's something of a language difference between us, or I've somehow not expressed myself clearly. I certainly care about other security issues, but what Opera (or any other browser maker) does or does not do with regard to them seems, IMO, to lie outside the topic at issue here. Or are you suggesting that the topic for your thread now is to include a general discussion of all the possible security elements and choices made in the design of Opera's Blink browser?

Indeed, other browsers elect to deal with the possibility of search-engine hijacking differently, if at all. That's their choice, for whatever their reasons. Opera does a number of things differently than other browsers, as it has for a very long time... and this is simply one more such thing.

As far as "being stuck" with Opera's default settings situation, that situation is whatever you make of it. I outlined earlier that you have 4 choices available, going forward. Again, I must state that you have made your suggestion and given your reasons; responses to some of your comments have been given here by users. Now a couple of realities remain: you have to make your own choice about what to do with the Opera browser as it currently is, or select a different browser; Opera will make its own decision regarding your suggestion and whether, when, or how to implement it. In the meantime, the browser remains what it is.

stealth789

stealth789

I defer to Opera on safety issues. So let's hope they look at the issue and decide what they can safely do. i want them, though, to protect me. I look to Opera for that safety determination.

I understand your point in your situation. Mine is just bit different.

I don't want them to offer unsafe search engines.

How can you say this? Nobody is saying about offering unsafe engines! Actually from my observation almost all of current are.

I think what Blackbird71 has said is that when Opera balances priorities -- dealing with issues that need immediately programming, and this one where people can use any search engine they want if they type one letter in front of the search -- it may not be the highest priority to be adding additional default search engines. There is an alternative procedure -- typing the one letter in front of the additional search -- which can work and is not unduly burdensome.

It's not about programming, even one letter. It's about forced control over something, where reasons are for speculations. And if safety would be primary issue, even attitude would be much different. I personally perceive it like restriction of my free choice, and forcing me to use sometimes some unsafe engine, or one of them.
And if one letter is so easy like you still argue. They can add few really safe engines to default list. It's still easy. I can even write rules to .json file for them, so it will be even easier. So there's no need for many people to press like monkeys. Just change in one place. Also easy. So where's problem here? It's more programming? No. It's peace of cake. And you are not forced to use any of this additional engine. So please stop using "easy" way of custom engines for many people to work. When you don't accept change in one place that can make it easier for many.

lem729

lem729

It's not about programming, even one letter. It's about forced control over something, where reasons are for speculations. And if safety would be primary issue, even attitude would be much different.

Every piece of software, every institution that you are a member of, every profession that you may work in may require something of you different than others. And in a free marketplace, this is not a "forced control" issue. Nor is this a "liberty" issue as you described it elsewhere in a post on the general subject matter (I'm not sure whether in this thread or a related one). Because you can go elsewhere. You are free to do that. I cannot state that more strongly. When you mixup/confuse a liberty issue or a forced control issue, you distort the terms, and make almost meaningless real "liberty" issues, or real "forced control" issues, where the person generally has nowhere else to go. If you want to participate -- that is, use the software, be in a profession, join a club, become a member of an organization, you follow the procedures, or as blackbird71 said with regard to Opera 22 (which is a browser, where there is competition, and you are by no means trapped), "you have to make your own choice about what to do with the Opera browser as it currently is, or select a different browser."

blackbird71

blackbird71

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It's not about programming, even one letter. It's about forced control over something, where reasons are for speculations. And if safety would be primary issue, even attitude would be much different.

Forced control would be Opera prohibiting any custom search engine from being installed by a user. Providing a rigid selection of defaults is a convenience feature, if an easy alternative is included for use of any other search engine... and typing one additional letter in a search bar is an easy alternative. I agree that it might be a convenience issue, but it hardly rises to the level of a "freedom" issue.

And by the way, I use Opera 12.14 instead of 12.15-12.17 (where the default behavior was changed to the same as now is in Blink Opera) for precisely this default search engine reason... that is, for the convenience it affords me to use StartPage as my default browser. But I'd hardly describe my freedom as having been infringed by what they did in removing the custom ability from the default choices. I deal with any increased search-engine hijacking risks other ways (safe hex). Nevertheless, I respect Opera's design choice in doing what they have with the seach engines, and the reasons they've provided.

stealth789

stealth789

It's not about programming, even one letter. It's about forced control over something, where reasons are for speculations. And if safety would be primary issue, even attitude would be much different.

Every piece of software, every institution that you are a member of, every profession that you may work in may require something of you different than others. And in a free marketplace, this is not a "forced control" issue. This is not a liberty issue. Because you can go elsewhere. I cannot state that more strongly. When you mixup/confuse a liberty issue or a forced control issue, you distort the terms, and make almost meaningless real "liberty" issues, or real "forced control" issues. If you want to participate, you follow the procedures, or as blackbird71 said, "you have to make your own choice about what to do with the Opera browser as it currently is, or select a different browser; Opera will make its own decision regarding your suggestion and whether, when, or how to implement it. In the meantime, the browser remains what it is.

It's not liberty issue? Other browser allows it. Allow me to choose safe engine. Opera is deciding for many. Even for some that don't change engine ever. And if they want to, are restricted to do so. It's no restricting? And follow the procedures? Do you know what liberty is?
In any other forums, I give suggestion, and I can argue. Here you're arguments are most time just distraction.

And you thing that approach aka: I know what's best. If you want change it, I don't care. Go elsewhere... You think this is the way how Opera will be better product for everybody? With this approach to things. When you can't argue, you are firing someone away. Oh sure. Liberty...

And sure, if this will be statement of Opera, and their way of dealing with things, to force their way, ignoring things, doing decisions without right reasons, some even behind users back, it will change my position. And also position of others. Hope it won't come to this. Also this is about finding reasons, where they can be. You're arguing just the way, who won't care, come on board. You who don't, go away. Even when your reasons are right. Basically this approach is just about loosing freedom.

stealth789

stealth789

...
It's not about programming, even one letter. It's about forced control over something, where reasons are for speculations. And if safety would be primary issue, even attitude would be much different.

Forced control would be Opera prohibiting any custom search engine from being installed by a user. Providing a rigid selection of defaults is a convenience feature, if an easy alternative is included for use of any other search engine... and typing one additional letter in a search bar is an easy alternative. I agree that it might be a convenience issue, but it hardly rises to the level of a "freedom" issue.

It's about freedom, when even this default list cannot be expanded. Because then there's no argument about security. And then there are totaly different reasons for this. And it has nothing to do with security. It's just excuse to use forced list.

And by the way, I use Opera 12.14 instead of 12.15-12.17 (where the default behavior was changed to the same as now is in Blink Opera) for precisely this default search engine reason... that is, for the convenience it affords me to use StartPage as my default browser. But I'd hardly describe my freedom as having been infringed by what they did in removing the custom ability from the default choices. I deal with any increased search-engine hijacking risks other ways (safe hex). Nevertheless, I respect Opera's design choice in doing what they have with the seach engines, and the reasons they've provided.

It's just deceiving. Correct question is, why then they didn't add StartPage. Ixquick,... to default serach engines, when it's safe, better much safer than engines they provide, and many are asking for it? It's lot of work? It's safer?

Deleted User

Deleted User

Any chance you might consider just taking your paranoia elsewhere? Give it a rest for crying out loud. You've beaten it to death and no one is really that concerned.

blackbird71

blackbird71

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It's about freedom, when even this default list cannot be expanded. Because then there's no argument about security. And then there are totaly different reasons for this. And it has nothing to do with security. It's just excuse to use forced list.
...
It's just deceiving. Correct question is, why then they didn't add StartPage. Ixquick,... to default serach engines, when it's safe, better much safer than engines they provide, and many are asking for it? It's lot of work? It's safer?

Hmm... let's see now. If I use one of many free-of-charge browsers that requires me to insert a prefix letter before my search term in order to use a custom search engine, or else I have to either install an extension or use another browser, that has infringed on my "freedom". I'm sorry, but that concept of freedom either cheapens the kind of real freedom so many have died for worldwide, or it's a woefully exaggerated misuse of the term.

And no, there is no "correct" question involved... there's only just a question that you've asked. At the time Opera removed the custom default search engine capability (12.15), Opera was already in a Presto wind-down phase... Presto developers either were leaving or being re-assigned to Blink development, initially for the mobile markets. You and I are free (real "freedom") to speculate in hindsight what they could have done, how complex or difficult it might have been, or whether they "shoulda, coulda, woulda" done it under other circumstances. But they didn't do it. End of story. Our opinions on that are pure speculation.

lem729

lem729

It's not liberty issue? Other browser allows it. Allow me to choose safe engine.>

Just because others do something or believe something doesn't make it right. It's fallacious reasoning to argue like that. Everyone in the world at one point thought the world was flat. Were the people who thought the world flat, right? One person said it was round. (And it was the one person, not the many, who had it right). Or when you tell your child he can't do something, and he cites other parents. They're letting their kids do it. What's right isn't necessarily something for majority vote. As for allowing you to choose the safe engine, I look for Opera to make the determination as to what's safe -- not to you.

You think this is the way how Opera will be better product for everybody? With this approach to things. When you can't argue, you are firing someone away. Oh sure. Liberty...>

You can argue all you want. That's what a forum is for. But not one argument you have yet made has been compelling or persuasive to me. I trust Opera, in part, because this is an area where they have a lot of expertise, and they have set up the architecture and code of the browser. They are in the best position to determine if something is safe or not. Now if we had more information about the nature of their thinking, and prestigious experts to dispute it, we might have more of a basis to second-guess. But at this point, we don't.

And sure, if this will be statement of Opera, and their way of dealing with things, to force their way, ignoring things, doing decisions without right reasons, some even behind users back, it will change my position. And also position of others. Hope it won't come to this. Also this is about finding reasons, where they can be. You're arguing just the way, who won't care, come on board. You who don't, go away. Even when your reasons are right. Basically this approach is just about loosing freedom.

Oh, please. You're ignored? You're posting in a forum for "suggestions." And as for "behind the users' back," Opera develops a product, takes huge amounts of input at every phase of it, as the product moves from beta to general user mode. The characterization that anything has been done behind the users' back is crazy. And on the "freedom" thought, no way is this a "freedom" issue. Does the developer of every product have to build into it freedom for a user to do anything? Not at all. You're not losing your freedom. In an open market place, you have freedom to use another product. And these products all cost you nothing, nada, zero, zip, rien. And yet you're angry if you don't get absolute freedom to do what you want in that free product. Ha! Please, no offense, but I do find it very funny. It's an argument more fitting for a Marx Brothers comedy. You know very surreal.

stealth789

stealth789

...
But default search engine is not the biggest issue, like you proclaim it to be. Also as I wrote. Take a look at these default search engines. How "safe" they really are. Still you're excusing change due to security reasons. You're mixing layers and priorities of security and customization. Default search engine is "big" deal (you don't care in what way it can be changed), but you don't care about JavaScript, Cookies, and o lot of other things. But default search engine sure, it's something different? No it's not.
...
Hijacking is here from long time ago. Still it didn't stopped browsers from changing default search engines, and reduce itself to useless software. You're proclaiming, like it's something that was invented just now. So now we have to force you, restrict? ... So where is the security here? I should be glad? That I can't change engine to safer one? Ok, you maybe are. I and many others are not. Fact that I'm stuck with default settings is not making anything safer like you said.

I nowhere "proclaimed" default search engines to be the 'biggest' issue. I simply noted that it is a security-related issue, and explained that Opera took the design action that it did regarding that for the reasons it has long-ago stated. Other security issues are just that: other ones, and whether Opera should address them or has addressed them, and how, are subjects for other discussions. Neither am I "excusing" anything, I'm simply explaining what Opera has multiple times stated, and some added aspects of the situation that I know to be true.

So don't argue like it is biggest security issue, when other settings are open, and are also dangerous the same way like this one. You can't use argument about one thing, and ignore other that are almost the same. Just because it suit your argumentation here. Then argument of security is useless. That's my point. Also other things are security issues, but are allowed. So why this one cannot be? What is exact difference here? If you're telling about security here, then sure argue it as complex thing. Not taking only one thing you like, and don't accept other, that are the same.

You started this thread (and your other one) on the subject of default search engines, and I've merely discussed it within the confines of that topic. Either there's something of a language difference between us, or I've somehow not expressed myself clearly. I certainly care about other security issues, but what Opera (or any other browser maker) does or does not do with regard to them seems, IMO, to lie outside the topic at issue here. Or are you suggesting that the topic for your thread now is to include a general discussion of all the possible security elements and choices made in the design of Opera's Blink browser?

To be accurate, I started only other one. And I'm not making it general. But when you can use security argument, I can use other, that are similar. So it can be judged complex. Because if you claim A cannot be, because of B. I can ask, so why is it that C is allowed because of B, and A not? I thin it's correct question.

Indeed, other browsers elect to deal with the possibility of search-engine hijacking differently, if at all. That's their choice, for whatever their reasons. Opera does a number of things differently than other browsers, as it has for a very long time... and this is simply one more such thing.

It's not about how Opera decided. But how it's practically presented and applied. Because there are ways to make everybody "happy". But not this way.

As far as "being stuck" with Opera's default settings situation, that situation is whatever you make of it. I outlined earlier that you have 4 choices available, going forward. Again, I must state that you have made your suggestion and given your reasons; responses to some of your comments have been given here by users. Now a couple of realities remain: you have to make your own choice about what to do with the Opera browser as it currently is, or select a different browser; Opera will make its own decision regarding your suggestion and whether, when, or how to implement it. In the meantime, the browser remains what it is.

This is just summary of facts, I knew just before. My point is try to make things better, when there's a way. And sure here's a way. Here are options to make it even safe, and even possible to use by everyone. I won't advocate someone/something, when I know it can be made better. And current situation is not so safe, like you proclaim it to be, by using this closed approach. It's just deceiving.

lem729

lem729

I haven't heard one thing, stealth789, that persuades me that additional search engines are safe and cost-effective for Opera, but you are seemingly filibustering, by going on posting forever it would seem, with a lot of totally scatter-gun argumentation, that is, at the least, very confusing. It's as if, for you, this is a "power" issue, and you are going to post forever. I mean, I write/post something, and five seconds later is a two page response. There is a very beautiful expression: "brevity is the soul of wit."

Deleted User

Deleted User

There is a very beautiful expression: "brevity is the soul of wit."

I doubt he would understand the truth of that maxim.

blackbird71

blackbird71

... You can't use argument about one thing, and ignore other that are almost the same. Just because it suit your argumentation here. Then argument of security is useless. That's my point. Also other things are security issues, but are allowed. So why this one cannot be? What is exact difference here? If you're telling about security here, then sure argue it as complex thing. Not taking only one thing you like, and don't accept other, that are the same.
... But when you can use security argument, I can use other, that are similar. So it can be judged complex. Because if you claim A cannot be, because of B. I can ask, so why is it that C is allowed because of B, and A not? I thin it's correct question.
...
It's not about how Opera decided. But how it's practically presented and applied. Because there are ways to make everybody "happy". But not this way.
...
My point is try to make things better, when there's a way. And sure here's a way. Here are options to make it even safe, and even possible to use by everyone. I won't advocate someone/something, when I know it can be made better. And current situation is not so safe, like you proclaim it to be, by using this closed approach. It's just deceiving.

On the contrary, I've come to the conclusion you simply want to argue. To reprise: you made a complaint about the way Opera has dealt with default search engines, and made a suggestion here and elsewhere about what they should do to improve things. I responded with an explanation of what Opera has said regarding why they did what they did, indicated that indeed there is a security issue regarding browser hijacking, along with making some further comments about possible design complexities, workloads, prioritization, etc. that may have a bearing on implementing your suggestion. You then have dragged in all sorts of security-related things you don't agree with Opera about, and ultimately argued that any counter-discussion here supports Opera's infringing on your "freedom". The sum of it is that you've found something in Opera you don't like, made a suggestion, and now want to argue endlessly by invoking all manner of irrelevant things that only serve to keep your argument alive. Enough. I'm out of here... have a nice evening.

Deleted User

Deleted User

It is about security, they provide only 5 default search engines to avoid malware which changes the search engine.

Deleted User

Deleted User

... You can't use argument about one thing, and ignore other that are almost the same. Just because it suit your argumentation here. Then argument of security is useless. That's my point. Also other things are security issues, but are allowed. So why this one cannot be? What is exact difference here? If you're telling about security here, then sure argue it as complex thing. Not taking only one thing you like, and don't accept other, that are the same.
... But when you can use security argument, I can use other, that are similar. So it can be judged complex. Because if you claim A cannot be, because of B. I can ask, so why is it that C is allowed because of B, and A not? I thin it's correct question.
...
It's not about how Opera decided. But how it's practically presented and applied. Because there are ways to make everybody "happy". But not this way.
...
My point is try to make things better, when there's a way. And sure here's a way. Here are options to make it even safe, and even possible to use by everyone. I won't advocate someone/something, when I know it can be made better. And current situation is not so safe, like you proclaim it to be, by using this closed approach. It's just deceiving.
On the contrary, I've come to the conclusion you simply want to argue. To reprise: you made a complaint about the way Opera has dealt with default search engines, and made a suggestion here and elsewhere about what they should do to improve things. I responded with an explanation of what Opera has said regarding why they did what they did, indicated that indeed there is a security issue regarding browser hijacking, along with making some further comments about possible design complexities, workloads, prioritization, etc. that may have a bearing on implementing your suggestion. You then have dragged in all sorts of security-related things you don't agree with Opera about, and ultimately argued that any counter-discussion here supports Opera's infringing on your "freedom". The sum of it is that you've found something in Opera you don't like, made a suggestion, and now want to argue endlessly by invoking all manner of irrelevant things that only serve to keep your argument alive. Enough. I'm out of here... have a nice evening.

I agree with you blackbird71.

stealth789

stealth789

Any chance you might consider just taking your paranoia elsewhere? Give it a rest for crying out loud. You've beaten it to death and no one is really that concerned.

I'm sorry if it's bothering you, but you're not forced in any way to read any of this. Also if you know more about possible dangers, the more you care. From your point things can look like paranoia maybe. Also I don't think, that you represent everybody, to be able to tell who is how much concerned.

stealth789

stealth789

...
It's about freedom, when even this default list cannot be expanded. Because then there's no argument about security. And then there are totaly different reasons for this. And it has nothing to do with security. It's just excuse to use forced list.
...
It's just deceiving. Correct question is, why then they didn't add StartPage. Ixquick,... to default serach engines, when it's safe, better much safer than engines they provide, and many are asking for it? It's lot of work? It's safer?
Hmm... let's see now. If I use one of many free-of-charge browsers that requires me to insert a prefix letter before my search term in order to use a custom search engine, or else I have to either install an extension or use another browser, that has infringed on my "freedom". I'm sorry, but that concept of freedom either cheapens the kind of real freedom so many have died for worldwide, or it's a woefully exaggerated misuse of the term.

We're talking about default search engine no custom one. In other browsers there's no requerment to prefix anything, or install specific extension. So make it simpler:

Why do I have to prefix searches or install additional extension?

And no, there is no "correct" question involved... there's only just a question that you've asked. At the time Opera removed the custom default search engine capability (12.15), Opera was already in a Presto wind-down phase... Presto developers either were leaving or being re-assigned to Blink development, initially for the mobile markets. You and I are free (real "freedom") to speculate in hindsight what they could have done, how complex or difficult it might have been, or whether they "shoulda, coulda, woulda" done it under other circumstances. But they didn't do it. End of story. Our opinions on that are pure speculation.

If you stated, that security is main issue here, than it's correct question. Still rather that speculate, you can answer it

Why Opera can't add StartPage, Ixquick,... to default search engines, when it's safe, probably much safer than engines they provide, and many are asking for it? When it's not big deal to expand one configuration file?

lem729

lem729

I agree with blackbird71. Let it go! Take the paranoia elsewhere. Stop the repetitive posting.