My thought on new Opera and its lack of bookmark manager

[saiyan]

saiyan last edited by

After many frustrating attempt using Opera 15 through 18 and failed attempts to import bookmarks, I really hope the Opera developers should realize that the lack of a proper bookmark manager is not helping.

First of all, as both a professional programmer/web developer and a power user I have been using Opera version 8 through 12 as my primary browser because I like its features, user interface and its support for web standards.

However, Opera browser has never been well known nor popular among most PC users. Only some power users would even bother to install and actually use it. Most power users treat Opera as a third class citizen in the browser world mostly because compatibility issues with web sites which use bad browser sniffing codes.

Personally I would NOT recommend Opera (Presto based) to any of my non-techie friends nor would I recommend it to my parents. I'm sure many of you who use Opera would not recommend Opera to your parents or non-techie friends either unless they are techie themselves and know what to do when Opera failed to load some web pages properly.

This means the potential users of Opera are really some adventurous power users and that is a very small group of people.
Based on my observation, many power users using Opera are also professional programmers or web developers.

And do you know what is one feature programmers or developers like to have in their browsers?
A proper bookmark manager.

We need to bookmark technical articles, blogs, and discussion threads on various web sites so we don't need to google for them again when we need to read them. We will want to organize our bookmarks based on various subject matter using sub-folders.

That means we power users will almost certainly end up with a large but organized list of bookmarks.

I don't know why some users such as Pesala kept defending the new Opera and dismissed the importance of a proper bookmark manager.
May be they are just technical geeks who don't do actual programming for living or has no need of a proper bookmark manager.

These users suggested import old bookmarks and use the following features instead:

1) Speed Dial (with giant thumbnail images)?

I prefer iOS 7 Safari's icon based favorite home page vs SpeedDial thumnail images but I"m sure some people like SpeedDial the way it is. Perhaps Opera can provide a icon based alternative to SpeedDial thumbnails in the future.

2) Stash (with even bigger thumbnail image)?

This is a nice feature but waste a lot of screen space.
I use it a few time but it doesn't seem very useful may be except as a "temporary bookmark" location where you can save links to some interesting web pages which you think you will re-visit again but not important enough to earn a permanent spot on your bookmark list.

3) QAB with no bookmark management capability?

If QAB is supposed to replace bookmark bar, please provide bookmark management functions and make it a proper bookmark manager.

IMO, SpeedDial, Stash and QAB are not suitable replacements of a proper bookmark manager.

Import bookmarks into SpeedDial or QAB?
Furthermore, I haven't been able to import my old bookmarks successfully into Opera 17/18.
There is not even a tool to import HTML bookmarks exported by other browsers. Really?

So I don't see how Chromium/Blink based Opera can attract or motivate power users to use it as their primary browser.
As for casual users? They will use either IE, Firefox or Chrome...

Why would most users choose Opera over Goolge Chrome which has a built-in bookmark manager and much better extension/app ecosystem?

If Opera developers really want to attract and motivate (power) users to test and use Chromium/Blink based Opera as their primary browser, at least they should include a proper bookmark manager such as the one from Opera 12. And please provide a better tool for importing bookmarks from old Opera and other browsers. Just because we are power users doesn't mean we need to mess with Opera flags parameters and run Opera with command line options just to import old bookmarks.

[A Former User]

A Former User last edited by

Originally posted by saiyan:

I don't know why some users such as Pesala kept defending the new Opera and dismissed the importance of a proper bookmark manager.

Someone has to put right those who don't know the difference between need and want. I tell users, “This is how it is (whether we like it or not). This is how to enable the Quick Access Bar, import your bookmarks to the QAB, and get on with your work while you wait for a proper bookmarks manager.”

The trouble is, many users prefer to whine in these user2user support forums rather than continuing to use the old version or adapting to the new one.

While power users do want bookmarks, Opera's user survey results indicated that 90% (sic) of users never added a single bookmark! So, why would they consider a bookmarks manager and import/export to other browsers to be a high priority? There are a whole lot of other features I need far more: editable shortcuts, gestures, and menus, for example. The QAB is not perfect, but it does the job for now (I have over 1,200 bookmarks).

You can always use your bookmarks stored on Opera Link (from any browser) or use another cloud based service for your bookmarks — that would save a lot of hassle if you regularly use multiple browsers.

To address your specific points:

1. Zoom out to reduce the size of Speed Dial thumbnails. (I would also like to use my own images as I do now).
2. Drag the slider up to remove the Stash thumbnails completely. (I am not sure if I would ever use the Stash. I think some will like it).
3. Drag and drop bookmarks and folders, and bookmarks between folders (not possible on the Bookmarks Bar in Opera 12.x), sort bookmarks alphabetically, edit folder names to make more fit on the QAB.

[frenzie]

frenzie last edited by

Originally posted by Pesala:

There are a whole lot of other features I need far more: editable shortcuts, gestures, and menus, for example.

Yet you could easily implement the QAB entirely by yourself if that were available. In fact my menu bar is like a QAB of sorts: it mixes links to websites, bookmarklets, built-in browser functions, and self-clustered macros. The point about bookmarks is that even Internet Explorer 3 has better bookmarks, and that stings.

[newbienontechie]

newbienontechie last edited by

To Pesala:

I am a nontechie and a newbie. I love Opera. It is stable and fast. (Of course, I don't think it's fast. To my thinking, it's normal and other browsers are slow.) All browsers should be as stable and fast as Opera. Stable = they don't jump around all over the place when reading sites with them.

But the bookmarks/favorites problem did come up and I thought I'd have to get another browser to use as my main one. But Pesala mentioned above that "I tell users, “This is how it is (whether we like it or not). This is how to enable the Quick Access Bar, import your bookmarks to the QAB, and get on with your work."

Pesala, (1)How do I find your post on how one enables the QAB and imports bookmarks?
(2) Where do I find the zoom to zoom out on the Speed Dial icons? Shouldn't there be a little magnifying glass icon someplace?

I'll be looking for your answer. Hope you can help me out.

[saiyan]

saiyan last edited by

Originally posted by Pesala:

While power users do want bookmarks, Opera's user survey results indicated that 90% (sic) of users never added a single bookmark!

I wonder when and where Opera did such a survey.
I have never received such a survey so that makes me wonder what users answered the survey..

Did users hastily answer and submit the survey without reading what they are answering?
Did Opera ask question in the right way or interpret answer correctly?

I find it hard to believe 90% of users never added a single bookmark!

I have helped setup PCs and Macs for many friends and their friends. (Yes, there are a lot of people who are simply not familiar using PCs or installing programs on PCs).

Whether those people use IE, Safari, Firefox or Chrome, just about all of those people use bookmarks to save web pages which they think are important. Users who were not aware of bookmarks in browser would ask "how can I save link to this web page". Well, that's when you inform them about bookmark manager in the browser.

Perhaps users meant they don't use bookmarks 90% of the time browsing the web.
Well. I don't use bookmarks 90% of the time in browser.
But that does not mean 90% of users don't use bookmarks at all.

Or perhaps 90% of Opera users responded that they never added a single bookmarks in Opera because they don't use Opera as their primary browser???
That would mean they most likely use bookmarks in other browsers!

I have been using Opera as my main browser for many years, I have NOT bothered adding a single bookmark to IE, Firefox or Chrome..
In fact, I have empty bookmarks in IE, Firefox and Chrome.

So if Mozilla send a survey to me asking me "how often I add bookmarks to Firefox" and I respond "never", should they interpret my answer that I don't ever use bookmarks in a browser?

Originally posted by Pesala:

To address your specific points:

1. Zoom out to reduce the size of Speed Dial thumbnails. (I would also like to use my own images as I do now).
2. Drag the slider up to remove the Stash thumbnails completely. (I am not sure if I would ever use the Stash. I think some will like it).
3. Drag and drop bookmarks and folders, and bookmarks between folders (not possible on the Bookmarks Bar in Opera 12.x), sort bookmarks alphabetically, edit folder names to make more fit on the QAB.

1) Zoom out Speed Dial page is not useful unless you want to read tiny size text.

2) Yes. Drag the slider on stash page does reduce the image size..

3) QAB is missing search function and multi-level folders. I have manually added a lot of bookmarks and folders to QAB for testing and I hate to rely using QAB to maintain bookmarks.

Just give us the same bookmark manager in Opera 12 and you will make a lot of people happy.

[frenzie]

frenzie last edited by

Originally posted by saiyan:

Perhaps users meant they don't use bookmarks 90% of the time browsing the web.
Well. I don't use bookmarks 90% of the time in browser.

I'd like to add to that point that Opera has plenty of features I seldom or in some cases never use. When's the last time I used a proxy server? (Not counting Turbo.) Yet such functionality is quite essential.

[A Former User]

A Former User last edited by

Originally posted by saiyan:

QAB is missing search function and multi-level folders.

There's no search, but multi-level folders are available.

Originally posted by saiyan:

I wonder when and where Opera did such a survey.I have never received such a survey so that makes me wonder what users answered the survey..

I find it hard to believe 90% of users never added a single bookmark!

Yes. I found it hard to believe too, but then I am not an average casual user of browsers, I spend the whole day online and use Google constantly for my academic research. I don't bookmark everything by a long way, but I have about 1500 bookmarks from the last 11 years.

Here is the Source

Since 2007 we've been asking randomly-selected people if we could anonymously collect information from their Opera install (via opera:config#UserPrefs|EnableUsageStatistics) so we could see the features they use. Some of these users have volunteered to give us this data since 2007.

Based on the group of 100,000+ users, we saw that more than 90% of our users never actually added a single bookmark to the ones shipped with Opera. What most people actually do is:

- keep their favorite sites open all the time
- use above together with sessions
- use Speed Dial

Originally posted by saiyan:

Zoom out Speed Dial page is not useful unless you want to read tiny size text.

I thought the whole point of having small speed dials is that you recognise them visually, without having to read the text. If you need to stop and read the SD title then it's not working as a speed dial. You should just click using visual memory, knowing which one is in which position in the grid. The thumbnail is just a reminder. Custom images like this would be ideal. Maybe one day.

[saiyan]

saiyan last edited by

Originally posted by Pesala:

There's no search, but multi-level folders are available.

No search?? That SUCKS!

Okay.. So just figured out I have to create folder on the root level first and drag and drop the new folder to existing create multi-level folder.

Originally posted by Pesala:

Here is the Source

Since 2007 we've been asking randomly-selected people if we could anonymously collect information from their Opera install (via opera:config#UserPrefs|EnableUsageStatistics) so we could see the features they use. Some of these users have volunteered to give us this data since 2007.

Based on the group of 100,000+ users, we saw that more than 90% of our users never actually added a single bookmark to the ones shipped with Opera.

And how many of those people are using Opera as their primary browser?
How many people here have bothered to maintain bookmarks on any browsers which they use only as secondary browsers?

[A Former User]

A Former User last edited by

Originally posted by saiyan:

No search?? That SUCKS!

When people help you, try to reply politely. The lack of a search in the Bookmarks Bar (which also lacks a search field in Opera 12), is not my fault. For a professional programmer and web developer you don't seem to have much understanding of how development or web forums work. Opera for Blink is being developed more or less from scratch. The developers are gradually adding back features. Meanwhile, if you want to use it other users can only tell you what it can and cannot do. Even the developers themselves could do no more, other than to say “we're working on it” or “we are not going to do that, use an extension.”

Rules of Conduct: Respect your fellow community members, and don't vent your frustrations at them.

I won't even enter into pointless debate about the survey results. You don't know and I don't know how many responders used Opera as their primary browser. I don't even know if that question was on the survey.

[tradeofjane]

tradeofjane last edited by

Originally posted by Pesala:

When people help you, try to reply politely. The lack of a search in the Bookmarks Bar (which also lacks a search field in Opera 12), is not my fault. For a professional programmer and web developer you don't seem to have much understanding of how development or web forums work. Opera for Blink is being developed more or less from scratch. The developers are gradually adding back features. Meanwhile, if you want to use it other users can only tell you what it can and cannot do. Even the developers themselves could do no more, other than to say “we're working on it” or “we are not going to do that, use an extension.”

I'm pretty sure development doesn't include releasing beta quality as a stable release. Maybe Opera should have gradually added back features before they decided to go from 12.16 to 18.

[A Former User]

A Former User last edited by

Originally posted by Tradeofjane:

Maybe Opera should have gradually added back features before they decided to go from 12.16 to 18.

They had to release the new version 15 in July just as soon as it was stable. People had been nagging for months because there was no new version of Opera since April. Releasing it prematurely also ensured the maximum feedback. I don't think they are surprised by how negative it has been, but it could have been handled much better.

The biggest mistake they made IMO is that they promoted it as the primary version on the download page, hiding the link for Opera 12.16 half way down the page. Had they promoted it as Opera Next all along, as something still unfinished, at least some of the negative feedback could have been avoided.

Even though 12.16 didn't find Opera 15-18 with "Check for updates," the fact that the download page advertises Opera 18 as the latest version, lead people to expect something better than Opera 12.16, and to think that the upgrade was recommended. No one should recommend this new version except as a fix for some problematic sites like Deviant Art, Facebook, etc.

[saiyan]

saiyan last edited by

Originally posted by Pesala:

Originally posted by saiyan:

No search?? That SUCKS!

When people help you, try to reply politely.

Rules of Conduct: Respect your fellow community members, and don't vent your frustrations at them.

I said "that sucks" in which *that* refers to the lack of search function in QAB.
No where did I reference you personally in my complaint about QAB.

So I don't see how my complaint about QAB can offend you personally unless you simply don't like to hear the word "suck" at all regardless of its context or usage.

Nevertheless, I will refrain from using word here again. Hope that you will make you happy.

For someone who has supposedly reached nirvana, you sure can be easily offended.

[A Former User]

A Former User last edited by

Originally posted by saiyan:

No where did I reference you personally in my complaint about QAB.

You quoted my reply, then complained instead of saying thank you for the help given, which pointed you in the right direction. Because I told you it was possible, you could figure out for yourself how to organise bookmarks and folders. Was it really that difficult? Probably you didn't expect it because you cannot do that in previous versions of Opera Presto, neither on the Bookmarks Menu nor on the Bookmarks Bar.

Originally posted by saiyan:

Okay.. So just figured out I have to create folder on the root level first and drag and drop the new folder to existing create multi-level folder.

Your attitude sucks, using CAPS LOCK sucks, and I find your posts offensive, nevertheless I helped you to resolve your problems. Now you know at least two things you didn't know before — how to reduce the thumbnail size in the stash, and how to organise bookmarks on the QAB.

May you one day find the path leading towards nibbāna.

[saiyan]

saiyan last edited by

Originally posted by Pesala:

You quoted my reply, then complained instead of saying thank you for the help given, which pointed you in the right direction.

Originally posted by Pesala:

Your attitude sucks, using CAPS LOCK sucks, and I find your posts offensive, nevertheless I helped you to resolve your problems. Now you know at least two things you didn't know before — how to reduce the thumbnail size in the stash, and how to organise bookmarks on the QAB.

Let me make things clear.
All you did was pointing out certain behavior of the QAB folder and reduce thumbnail size in stash.
You did not resolve my problem at all.
And in case you forgot, my problem is a lack of a proper bookmark manager in new Opera browser. Furthermore, as I have mentioned in another thread the bookmark importer never worked for me and there are no proper tools to import bookmarks from other browsers.

So you think my attitude s***?
Is it because I use the s word, entered the s word in uppercase letters and failed to say "thank you" to you?
If so, have you try to wonder why I responded the way I did?

I will tell you why and I don't care if you are going to hate me.

I have read many messages you posted in various threads in response to users complaint about the lack of proper bookmark manager.
You tried to tell people to use SpeedDial and QAB instead of complaining about the lack of bookmark manager.

Yes, you have provided some tips which would help users to use SpeedDial and QAB so perhaps you think you are trying to help but you seem to have failed to realize those two features as the way they are implemented are not replacement of a good bookmark manager.

In your responses to me and to other users, you have consistently dismissed bookmark manager as an unimportant feature and defended Opera's decision not to include a built-in bookmark manager by mentioning some survey Opera conducted. But when I want to discuss about the so called survey, how to interpret its data and whether the the data is valid, you don't want to go there. (Is there any reason why you wouldn't want to talk about the result of Opera's survey?)

From my point of view, you appeared like a Opera fanboy and you have this arrogant and nonchalant attitude toward users who have complained about the lack of bookmark manager.

In my mind, I am wondering why you kept defending Opera, dismissing bookmark manager as unimportant instead of acknowledging that it is a important feature for some people and why you seem to lack empathy to understand why some people feel frustrated about the lack of a bookmark manager.

It is because of this fanboyish, arrogant and nonchalant attitude you have shown, I feel the need to use s word in uppercase to describe some missing feature and it is also the reason why I don't feel you have earned a "thank you" from me.

When I argue with people and if they use the s word to describing certain things (not person) being discussed, I know they are frustrated. Certainly no way I would think their usage of s word is offensive.

When I help out people online or in person, I don't look for "thank you" or any favor in return.
And if they use s word in their response, I know they are frustrated.

But here..
You are so hypersensitive when I used the s word, not toward you or used it to reference you, but to describe some missing software feature?
And you feel you deserve a "thank you" from me while you are being fanboyish, arrogant and nonchalant?

Yes, saying "thank you" is a common courtesy and I normally do that when I received help from others but if I said "thank you" to you, it would have empowered your fanboyish and nonchalant attitude further.

Originally posted by Pesala:

May you one day find the path leading towards nibbāna.

Your hypersensitivity to my usage of the s word describing some missing software feature and you feel the need to be thanked suggest you are heading in the opposite path away from nirvana.

Given your hypersensitivity and are easily offended, you are probably hopping mad right now reading my response.

Since you are a Buddhist and Buddhism is well known for its teaching of compassion and empathy, here are my questions for you.

1) Would you dare to use your empathy and look at things from other's point of view to see that you have responded to others with a fanboyish, arrogant and nonchalant attitude when addressing their complaints about the lack of bookmark manager?

2) Why are you, as a Buddhist, so hypersensitive to my usage of the s word describing some software feature?
The s word was not even used to describe you or reference you.

I'm no where near nirvana and I don't feel offended when people use the s word to describe things (not person) because they are frustrated. I also don't look for "thank you" from other people when I help them out.

To be fair to you, I will use a little empathy and try to imagine what it is like to be you being so hypersensitive.
There is something about hearing the s word that drives me mad, I don't know why but it doesn't feel good.
There is something wrong about not receiving a "thank you" and that makes me unhappy even though I should not care as a Buddhist.

In other words, for some unknown reason you are upset with my usage of the s word (describing some software feature) and I failed to say thank you to you.
So here is my official apology: I am sorry for using s word and thank you for providing tips.

With that being said.. My apology is not an excuse for you to ignore my questions.

Yes.. I still want to know why you are so hypersensitive and why you have not realized that you appeared fanboyish (by defending Opera consistently), arrogant (by dismissing bookmark manager as an unimportant feature) and nonchalant (by failing to understand empathically why some users feel frustrated) toward users who complained about the lack of bookmark manager.

[A Former User]

A Former User last edited by

Originally posted by saiyan:

You did not resolve my problem at all.

Your problem is that you came to this user2user support forum to rant. I did not ignore your question, I addressed it in my very first reply.

Originally posted by Pesala:

This is how to enable the Quick Access Bar, import your bookmarks to the QAB, and get on with your work while you wait for a proper bookmarks manager.”

The QAB is not perfect, but it does the job for now (I have over 1,200 bookmarks).

So, solve your fundamental problem, which is an anger management issue.

[Deleted User]

Deleted User last edited by

Look... give it a rest, okay. Pesala is very human just like you and I so don't expect perfection because you won't find it. Then again, you won't find it in me nor in yourself. We're all "under construction" as it were and a long way from being perfect. More than half of your post is a direct attack upon the man and that violates the terms of service so please... chill out.

As for the bookmarks' manager, everyone including Pesala is aware that the QAB is not a bookmarks' manager and it will not do the things that the former bookmarks' manager would do. HOWEVER, the QAB can be made to act as a "type" of manager in the interim. You can nest folders within folders inside that bar and literally hold hundreds of bookmarks. Hopefully a more complete bookmarks' manager will be added to the browser in the future and that is the long and short of it. If that does not meet your requirements, stick with a Presto version OR move to another browser.

[Deleted User]

Deleted User last edited by

Originally posted by Pesala:

So, solve your fundamental problem, which is an anger management issue.

Uh... physician - heal thyself.

[A Former User]

A Former User last edited by

Originally posted by leushino:

Uh... physician - heal thyself.

I am not angry. Just going about my usual business of helping people with their problems. What's yours ?

[Deleted User]

Deleted User last edited by

Originally posted by Pesala:

Originally posted by leushino:

Uh... physician - heal thyself.

I am not angry. Just going about my usual business of helping people with their problems. What's yours ?

You see... this is where it all breaks down, Pesala. Whereas you make claims to the contrary, you cannot let anything go without giving a snide remark, an innuendo, a rebuttal ALL of which point to pride and passion. Your "usual business" if your website is to be believed, would seem to indicate anything BUT the sort of behavior we see here on the forums. Evidently you did not care for the response I sent to you via the messaging system and so you quickly removed it. A true monk would not be bothered by such. He would be immune to accusations since in his own eyes he "is" everything and more of what his accusers say (at least that's how our monks behave, God bless them). If someone rattles your chain, you give a response that is typically viewed as both dismissive and arrogant (and I'm not the only one to sense this so don't be too quick to point a finger at me). I am the first to admit that my emotions and passions often get in the way but you on the other hand present yourself as perfect (and you aren't, my friend...not by a country mile).

So what is my problem? Well... in these forums my problems are minimal and they're generally of my own making. In life? God has been very good to me...much more than I deserve so I have no complaints. I am loved and I love. What more could I possibly ask?

Let's try and agree (if you will) to cut one another some slack. I'm not your enemy although having held up a mirror in private, you likely view me as such. If the mirror gave a false view, then there is no need to defend.

I will post a follow up from the Sayings of the Desert Fathers (off-topic but perhaps very much needed).

[Deleted User]

Deleted User last edited by

Humility

What is humility? Humility is to look on oneself as dust and ashes. The humble says, "Who am I? And who considers me to be anything? Who am I to deal with people for I am powerless?" He does not say, "What" or "What is this?" but walks submissively in his ways, never deeming himself equal to others. And if he is despised and rejected he does not get angry.
Humility is to hold oneself as guilty and to find that one has done nothing good before God. It is to maintain silence, looking on oneself as nothing. It is to reject one's inclinations, to look down to the ground, bearing death before his eyes., safeguarding himself from lying. It consists in not speaking, falsehood or arguing with someone who is older than you are, enduring insults joyfully, detesting comfort and training oneself in hardship, never distressing anyone.
~ St. Abba Isaiah