My thought on new Opera and its lack of bookmark manager

[tradeofjane]

tradeofjane last edited by

Originally posted by Pesala:

When people help you, try to reply politely. The lack of a search in the Bookmarks Bar (which also lacks a search field in Opera 12), is not my fault. For a professional programmer and web developer you don't seem to have much understanding of how development or web forums work. Opera for Blink is being developed more or less from scratch. The developers are gradually adding back features. Meanwhile, if you want to use it other users can only tell you what it can and cannot do. Even the developers themselves could do no more, other than to say “we're working on it” or “we are not going to do that, use an extension.”

I'm pretty sure development doesn't include releasing beta quality as a stable release. Maybe Opera should have gradually added back features before they decided to go from 12.16 to 18.

[A Former User]

A Former User last edited by

Originally posted by Tradeofjane:

Maybe Opera should have gradually added back features before they decided to go from 12.16 to 18.

They had to release the new version 15 in July just as soon as it was stable. People had been nagging for months because there was no new version of Opera since April. Releasing it prematurely also ensured the maximum feedback. I don't think they are surprised by how negative it has been, but it could have been handled much better.

The biggest mistake they made IMO is that they promoted it as the primary version on the download page, hiding the link for Opera 12.16 half way down the page. Had they promoted it as Opera Next all along, as something still unfinished, at least some of the negative feedback could have been avoided.

Even though 12.16 didn't find Opera 15-18 with "Check for updates," the fact that the download page advertises Opera 18 as the latest version, lead people to expect something better than Opera 12.16, and to think that the upgrade was recommended. No one should recommend this new version except as a fix for some problematic sites like Deviant Art, Facebook, etc.

[saiyan]

saiyan last edited by

Originally posted by Pesala:

Originally posted by saiyan:

No search?? That SUCKS!

When people help you, try to reply politely.

Rules of Conduct: Respect your fellow community members, and don't vent your frustrations at them.

I said "that sucks" in which *that* refers to the lack of search function in QAB.
No where did I reference you personally in my complaint about QAB.

So I don't see how my complaint about QAB can offend you personally unless you simply don't like to hear the word "suck" at all regardless of its context or usage.

Nevertheless, I will refrain from using word here again. Hope that you will make you happy.

For someone who has supposedly reached nirvana, you sure can be easily offended.

[A Former User]

A Former User last edited by

Originally posted by saiyan:

No where did I reference you personally in my complaint about QAB.

You quoted my reply, then complained instead of saying thank you for the help given, which pointed you in the right direction. Because I told you it was possible, you could figure out for yourself how to organise bookmarks and folders. Was it really that difficult? Probably you didn't expect it because you cannot do that in previous versions of Opera Presto, neither on the Bookmarks Menu nor on the Bookmarks Bar.

Originally posted by saiyan:

Okay.. So just figured out I have to create folder on the root level first and drag and drop the new folder to existing create multi-level folder.

Your attitude sucks, using CAPS LOCK sucks, and I find your posts offensive, nevertheless I helped you to resolve your problems. Now you know at least two things you didn't know before — how to reduce the thumbnail size in the stash, and how to organise bookmarks on the QAB.

May you one day find the path leading towards nibbāna.

[saiyan]

saiyan last edited by

Originally posted by Pesala:

You quoted my reply, then complained instead of saying thank you for the help given, which pointed you in the right direction.

Originally posted by Pesala:

Your attitude sucks, using CAPS LOCK sucks, and I find your posts offensive, nevertheless I helped you to resolve your problems. Now you know at least two things you didn't know before — how to reduce the thumbnail size in the stash, and how to organise bookmarks on the QAB.

Let me make things clear.
All you did was pointing out certain behavior of the QAB folder and reduce thumbnail size in stash.
You did not resolve my problem at all.
And in case you forgot, my problem is a lack of a proper bookmark manager in new Opera browser. Furthermore, as I have mentioned in another thread the bookmark importer never worked for me and there are no proper tools to import bookmarks from other browsers.

So you think my attitude s***?
Is it because I use the s word, entered the s word in uppercase letters and failed to say "thank you" to you?
If so, have you try to wonder why I responded the way I did?

I will tell you why and I don't care if you are going to hate me.

I have read many messages you posted in various threads in response to users complaint about the lack of proper bookmark manager.
You tried to tell people to use SpeedDial and QAB instead of complaining about the lack of bookmark manager.

Yes, you have provided some tips which would help users to use SpeedDial and QAB so perhaps you think you are trying to help but you seem to have failed to realize those two features as the way they are implemented are not replacement of a good bookmark manager.

In your responses to me and to other users, you have consistently dismissed bookmark manager as an unimportant feature and defended Opera's decision not to include a built-in bookmark manager by mentioning some survey Opera conducted. But when I want to discuss about the so called survey, how to interpret its data and whether the the data is valid, you don't want to go there. (Is there any reason why you wouldn't want to talk about the result of Opera's survey?)

From my point of view, you appeared like a Opera fanboy and you have this arrogant and nonchalant attitude toward users who have complained about the lack of bookmark manager.

In my mind, I am wondering why you kept defending Opera, dismissing bookmark manager as unimportant instead of acknowledging that it is a important feature for some people and why you seem to lack empathy to understand why some people feel frustrated about the lack of a bookmark manager.

It is because of this fanboyish, arrogant and nonchalant attitude you have shown, I feel the need to use s word in uppercase to describe some missing feature and it is also the reason why I don't feel you have earned a "thank you" from me.

When I argue with people and if they use the s word to describing certain things (not person) being discussed, I know they are frustrated. Certainly no way I would think their usage of s word is offensive.

When I help out people online or in person, I don't look for "thank you" or any favor in return.
And if they use s word in their response, I know they are frustrated.

But here..
You are so hypersensitive when I used the s word, not toward you or used it to reference you, but to describe some missing software feature?
And you feel you deserve a "thank you" from me while you are being fanboyish, arrogant and nonchalant?

Yes, saying "thank you" is a common courtesy and I normally do that when I received help from others but if I said "thank you" to you, it would have empowered your fanboyish and nonchalant attitude further.

Originally posted by Pesala:

May you one day find the path leading towards nibbāna.

Your hypersensitivity to my usage of the s word describing some missing software feature and you feel the need to be thanked suggest you are heading in the opposite path away from nirvana.

Given your hypersensitivity and are easily offended, you are probably hopping mad right now reading my response.

Since you are a Buddhist and Buddhism is well known for its teaching of compassion and empathy, here are my questions for you.

1) Would you dare to use your empathy and look at things from other's point of view to see that you have responded to others with a fanboyish, arrogant and nonchalant attitude when addressing their complaints about the lack of bookmark manager?

2) Why are you, as a Buddhist, so hypersensitive to my usage of the s word describing some software feature?
The s word was not even used to describe you or reference you.

I'm no where near nirvana and I don't feel offended when people use the s word to describe things (not person) because they are frustrated. I also don't look for "thank you" from other people when I help them out.

To be fair to you, I will use a little empathy and try to imagine what it is like to be you being so hypersensitive.
There is something about hearing the s word that drives me mad, I don't know why but it doesn't feel good.
There is something wrong about not receiving a "thank you" and that makes me unhappy even though I should not care as a Buddhist.

In other words, for some unknown reason you are upset with my usage of the s word (describing some software feature) and I failed to say thank you to you.
So here is my official apology: I am sorry for using s word and thank you for providing tips.

With that being said.. My apology is not an excuse for you to ignore my questions.

Yes.. I still want to know why you are so hypersensitive and why you have not realized that you appeared fanboyish (by defending Opera consistently), arrogant (by dismissing bookmark manager as an unimportant feature) and nonchalant (by failing to understand empathically why some users feel frustrated) toward users who complained about the lack of bookmark manager.

[A Former User]

A Former User last edited by

Originally posted by saiyan:

You did not resolve my problem at all.

Your problem is that you came to this user2user support forum to rant. I did not ignore your question, I addressed it in my very first reply.

Originally posted by Pesala:

This is how to enable the Quick Access Bar, import your bookmarks to the QAB, and get on with your work while you wait for a proper bookmarks manager.”

The QAB is not perfect, but it does the job for now (I have over 1,200 bookmarks).

So, solve your fundamental problem, which is an anger management issue.

[Deleted User]

Deleted User last edited by

Look... give it a rest, okay. Pesala is very human just like you and I so don't expect perfection because you won't find it. Then again, you won't find it in me nor in yourself. We're all "under construction" as it were and a long way from being perfect. More than half of your post is a direct attack upon the man and that violates the terms of service so please... chill out.

As for the bookmarks' manager, everyone including Pesala is aware that the QAB is not a bookmarks' manager and it will not do the things that the former bookmarks' manager would do. HOWEVER, the QAB can be made to act as a "type" of manager in the interim. You can nest folders within folders inside that bar and literally hold hundreds of bookmarks. Hopefully a more complete bookmarks' manager will be added to the browser in the future and that is the long and short of it. If that does not meet your requirements, stick with a Presto version OR move to another browser.

[Deleted User]

Deleted User last edited by

Originally posted by Pesala:

So, solve your fundamental problem, which is an anger management issue.

Uh... physician - heal thyself.

[A Former User]

A Former User last edited by

Originally posted by leushino:

Uh... physician - heal thyself.

I am not angry. Just going about my usual business of helping people with their problems. What's yours ?

[Deleted User]

Deleted User last edited by

Originally posted by Pesala:

Originally posted by leushino:

Uh... physician - heal thyself.

I am not angry. Just going about my usual business of helping people with their problems. What's yours ?

You see... this is where it all breaks down, Pesala. Whereas you make claims to the contrary, you cannot let anything go without giving a snide remark, an innuendo, a rebuttal ALL of which point to pride and passion. Your "usual business" if your website is to be believed, would seem to indicate anything BUT the sort of behavior we see here on the forums. Evidently you did not care for the response I sent to you via the messaging system and so you quickly removed it. A true monk would not be bothered by such. He would be immune to accusations since in his own eyes he "is" everything and more of what his accusers say (at least that's how our monks behave, God bless them). If someone rattles your chain, you give a response that is typically viewed as both dismissive and arrogant (and I'm not the only one to sense this so don't be too quick to point a finger at me). I am the first to admit that my emotions and passions often get in the way but you on the other hand present yourself as perfect (and you aren't, my friend...not by a country mile).

So what is my problem? Well... in these forums my problems are minimal and they're generally of my own making. In life? God has been very good to me...much more than I deserve so I have no complaints. I am loved and I love. What more could I possibly ask?

Let's try and agree (if you will) to cut one another some slack. I'm not your enemy although having held up a mirror in private, you likely view me as such. If the mirror gave a false view, then there is no need to defend.

I will post a follow up from the Sayings of the Desert Fathers (off-topic but perhaps very much needed).

[Deleted User]

Deleted User last edited by

Humility

What is humility? Humility is to look on oneself as dust and ashes. The humble says, "Who am I? And who considers me to be anything? Who am I to deal with people for I am powerless?" He does not say, "What" or "What is this?" but walks submissively in his ways, never deeming himself equal to others. And if he is despised and rejected he does not get angry.
Humility is to hold oneself as guilty and to find that one has done nothing good before God. It is to maintain silence, looking on oneself as nothing. It is to reject one's inclinations, to look down to the ground, bearing death before his eyes., safeguarding himself from lying. It consists in not speaking, falsehood or arguing with someone who is older than you are, enduring insults joyfully, detesting comfort and training oneself in hardship, never distressing anyone.
~ St. Abba Isaiah

[saiyan]

saiyan last edited by

Originally posted by Pesala:

.....

I am a bit disappointed that you did not answer my questions.

Curious mind would like to know why you are so hypersensitive (compare to average people) that you feel offended when I used the s word to describe a software feature. And you like to respond to others with that fanboyish/arrogant/nonchalant attitude. Yet, you are apparently a dedicated Buddhist.

There is something about your personality that does not compute.

Unlikely your other comment that I need anger management, I was not angry.
However, I was irritated by your fanboyish, arrogant, nonchalant attitude.

Also you claimed in another thread that you are simply being dispassionate.
But you came across as someone who lacks empathy (not to mention being hypersensitive).
Is that dispassion gone wrong?

Anyway, you are not obligated to answer my questions.
So if you are not in the mood to answer my questions, just say so and I will not pursue the matter any further.
After all, this conversation is already off-topic..

[saiyan]

saiyan last edited by

Originally posted by Pesala:

...

Presala,
As much as I would like to see you answer my questions, I just realized you probably will not bother. Because if you are as dispassionate as you claimed to be, you were probably thinking "whatever" after reading my questions. (You are still welcome to answer those questions if you like).

Since this conversation is becoming unhealthy, there is probably no point to continue.

Just reading all the user complaints about the new Opera browser as well as various responses you have posted in the forum, I just realized there is no point to post any complaints about the browser here anymore. Futhermore, Opera developers themselves also appear to be as dispassionate as you are about some user complaints.

I will probably come back one year later and see if Opera programmers bothered to add bookmark manager or other good features.

You can go ahead and lock this thread.
(I assume you are a forum admin based on the fact you have posted over 26800+ messages here).

[Deleted User]

Deleted User last edited by

Originally posted by rilef:

Originally posted by ...:

Originally posted by ...:

Why do you see the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?

Yes, indeed... there is most definitely a log in my own and so I am unable to remove the speck in my brother's eye. Good reminder.

[Deleted User]

Deleted User last edited by

Originally posted by saiyan:

(I assume you are a forum admin based on the fact you have posted over 26800+ messages here).

No, he is a user who both likes to help other users AND appears to have a very great deal of time on his hands.

[Deleted User]

Deleted User last edited by

Let's say that over the years I have read quite a few answers by Pesala and they were often useful. But this time I am on the side of Saiyin. He brought up a lot of interesting points regarding the lack of a bookmark feature and the findings of Opera surveys. He made a innocent remark not intended at anyone, no explanations were given. Instead of getting a reply he got a lecture.
After using Opera since version 4 (remember how far back that is? If I'm not mistaken I still have the CD that came with a magazine that introduced me to Opera) and now about 3 weeks into trying and suffering I can honestly say Opera 15-18 Sucks big time. I am not at all a power user just someone that never like IE or MS products after running into endless trouble with the first version of MS WORD and Excel (1990). So I started browsing with Netscape Navigator and switched to Opera after it was booked up. Have since used Modzilla and Firefox but they can't compare to Opera. Even the short time I was using Linux as my only OS Opera was my browser and mail client.

I love bookmarks. So no bookmarks no Opera;
No don't tell me to use Speed Dail (I hate that as a feature in any browser and switch it off as soon as I install it);
I don't like extra toolbars (my vertical screen space is too limited);
Have the panels gone? love those but they did not appear after the upgrade;
AND WHY did they have to remove the integrated Mail client? This is why I love Opera: everything in one place. With O18 and OM1 it is constant clicking between windows. Call me old fashioned but I like my important mails on my machine and not somewhere in cyberspace. I have a gmail account and it scares me how much they know about me just from being able to 'store' (=read) my mails.

I lost most of my mails in the upgrade from 12.16 to Opera Mail 1 en Opera 18. Luckily I had a back up and reinstalling Opera 12 I got them all back.

But seriously. I have loved Opera from the beginning because it has the mail and browser in one convenient package. I love Opera because it went it's own way, was different and better than everybody else. Why now all of a sudden become a Chrome clone. If I could not stand IE I hate Chrome with a vengeance. Even on my Android phone I have it disables as I am not allowed to uninstall it (Google the new MS). If Opera insists on continuing on this path it will be the end of a beautiful friendship.

WE DO WANT BOOKMARKS BACK no matter what the surveys say bookmarks are a deal breaker. Indeed in my firefox browser, which I need because one bank I work with does only allow IE or Firefox to be used for its internet banking I have not a single bookmark, though I have been using it several times a weeks for the past 7 years. AND for me personally the fact that they removed the mail client will also mean the end. There are other and better mail clients out there the Opera combination was perfect for me.

[Deleted User]

Deleted User last edited by

I can almost guarantee that an integrated mail client is not in the cards so if it is a 'deal breaker' as you say, then I guess you'd better start looking for another suite. May I suggest SeaMonkey. It's a throwback to Netscape, being in the direct Mozilla line to that 90's suite.

As for bookmarks, somewhere I read that a full bookmark manager was still in the works. I'm using the QAB and find it sufficient but your needs are obviously different than mine. I can't see this changing any time soon so either you stick with Opera 12.16 and run Opera Next alongside it for incompatible sites OR you do as I suggested and migrate over to SM. Good luck.

[A Former User]

A Former User last edited by

Originally posted by geertlpa168:

Let's say that over the years I have read quite a few answers by Pesala and they were often useful. But this time I am on the side of Saiyin. He brought up a lot of interesting points regarding the lack of a bookmark feature and the findings of Opera surveys. He made a innocent remark not intended at anyone, no explanations were given. Instead of getting a reply he got a lecture.

Saiyan did not ask an innocent question. He started this thread with a rant about all he thought was wrong with the new Opera and its lack of a bookmarks manager, with a personal attack thrown in for good measure. I am not defending the New Opera, I am well aware of its failings, and will continue using 11.64 until it is a better choice for me, but people need to get real here. It is a new product, and many planned features are not included yet. Others are not planned (integrated email, notes, etc.) — it will never be the same as Opera 12.x again. It is not a Chrome clone, and it won't be a clone of the old Opera either.

Saiyan brought up nothing of interest, just a lot of points that have been made repeatedly by others since Opera 15 was released. He apparently failed to read any of the previous replies on the forums and blogs. In my reply, I explained how to manage bookmarks on the QAB or use Opera Link, and further that a bookmark manager was being worked on.

Now you join the fray shouting “WE DO WANT BOOKMARKS BACK” when you have already been told that they're working on it. How about doing some reading before giving me a lecture? The reasons why the email client is no longer integrated have also already been given many times. The mail client is no worse for being separated, it still has the same excellent features with fast search, and database filtering. The only loss is that it has been made rather less convenient to access from the browser. Customisable shortcuts could easily fix that. One minor improvement is that users can now check their mail without starting their browser — not something that I would use, but nevertheless an improvement for some.