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why did opera browser change like this?

  • I am just speechless, we - users that have used opera for so long have not used it because it offered same as the rest but than with red O button, how can someone from opera give us this new product and think we are not going to mis all the stuff that made opera so special ... I am clueless

  • Originally posted by ersi:

    Originally posted by leushino:

    I'm putting my point again** so that even you should be able to grasp it**. And perhaps then answer to the actual point.

    Sarcasm is frequently employed when people are angry. Are you angry? If so, you might want to seek help since anger can destroy one's life.

    Aggressive marketing campaign is for those very big companies with products whose market share is based largely on that marketing itself, i.e. hot air. In contrast, Opera's fame was based on its actual feature set, instead of campaigning. Now that the features are gone and there's no campaigning going on, how do you justify your belief that Opera will make it big soon? You keep saying that Opera ASA will have big success now that they moved to Blink, but you consistently failed to even remotely hint how Opera's increase of user base would come about.

    Yes, I'm aware of all of this. My previous statement was made with tongue in cheek regarding another's claim that Opera's 18 years of 3% was the result of a lack of marketing. Opera never had any "fame" as you put it. If that were so, word of mouth on the internet would have brought in droves of users over those 18 years. But it never happened because Opera's feature set, as you put it, was seen as too geeky, too convoluted, too bloated out of the box to be worthwhile. And saddled as it was with an email client did not help matters either.

    I justify my lack of belief in the company's future with these facts:

    - Their flagship product has no features to base a promotional campaign on. It has no features compared to any other current browser, and feature-wise it compares appallingly to the Presto versions.
    - There is no campaign going on as we speak and, historically, their campaigns never made that much of a difference. The biggest difference I noticed was at about v.7.5 but also this arguably didn't even make a footnote in the history of browsers.
    - Given above facts, they either lack ideas or resources for any campaigning. Possibly both. Plus they also very likely lack ideas to develop the product itself.

    Therefore no bright future. Now your turn. How do you justify your belief that a commercial miracle is about to happen?

    And I respond that it is too early to make predictions. It lacks some features at this time because it is still early in its development. I recognize something that you seem unwilling to accept. Opera is not turning back. There are times in this life that we make decisions and once made there is no turning back. Opera, as the small company you have described, does not have the resources to simply toss out months of work and return to Presto. The Presto version is dead and no amount of clever arguments to the contrary will change that simply fact. And it's always been simple right from the start: people either accept that this is the new Opera and try to adapt to the changes OR they continue with an older Opera browser (that they loved so much) and watch the development of the new browser take place OR they leave and find another browser. But posting negative comments day after day after day does not serve anyone including themselves. What is the point? Do you envision the developers and shareholders all gathered around our words in these community forums, hanging off our every statement and wringing their hands in despair. "We've made a terrible mistake." Uh... hardly. Your clever arguments only serve yourself and the others who are upset and angry but in the end? Nothing.

  • Originally posted by inherkhau:

    ... I am clueless

    Indeed. You need to educate yourself on what Opera is doing. Go to the developer blogs and read about the new Opera. Hanging around here and listening to the negative speeches will only further confuse you.

  • Originally posted by leushino:

    Yes, I'm aware of all of this. My previous statement was made with tongue in cheek regarding another's claim that Opera's 18 years of 3% was the result of a lack of marketing. Opera never had any "fame" as you put it. If that were so, word of mouth on the internet would have brought in droves of users over those 18 years.

    There was a point there that I tried to convey twice in a row, but you still interpreted it exactly the opposite way. Maybe you are too much tongue-in-cheek, sarcastic, angry, etc. while I'm now carefully presenting the point for you again, for the third time in another way. I have given up hope now that you will get the point, but I'm doing it anyway, out of sheer kindness.

    You are misinterpreting the 3% market share as small. It is not small. Let's go over the reasons why it's not small.

    First, it's millions of users that have kept the company not just afloat, but expanding for 18 years.
    Second, the expansion has been achieved without any notable marketing campaign in a very competitive market situation.
    Third, it's been achieved by word of mouth, meaning that people chose Opera for what it really is, not because of its popularity or such.
    Fourth, most of the market is full of advertising. The popularity of the biggest browsers is backed up by the stock value of the company behind it, instead of being based on the features of the product. There are those who can tell the difference between hot air and the quality of the product. And besides seeing through the smokescreen, it still takes some effort to make a conscious informed choice. Consequently, the number of users of the kind of product that Opera Presto is could never have been very big. People who make conscious choices are not many. And then there are some of those who specifically go for obscure products rather than the big names.

    Given all this, the market share Opera had was a considerable achievement. It's not a small market share, but quite adequate, reflecting the nature of Opera itself, a niche product. Still, it has been mentioned along with the big ones. It's the smallest of the big browsers, but still among the big. A remarkable achievement indeed.

    What the company is doing now is throwing all this away. Instead of keeping the status as the smallest among the big, they are now producing something that identifies as Chrome/Chromium in the browser statistics. No developer has any reason to test websites against something that is just another Chrome. How can the user base grow now? Obviously it can only shrink.

    You protest to this conclusion by giving two contradictory answers:
    1. Too early to make predictions.
    2. Opera will become a great success. There are only a handful of whiners.

    What should I make of this? As you have said a few times, there are far too many blessings in your life, so coherence is utterly irrelevant to you.

  • Truly speaking it comes to this, Opera Team is giving up loyal users and trying to have new users instead hoping there will be more of them. Sad but thats the way life goes. I'm the one who feel betrayed but hey... you do not owe me enything.

  • I doubt they really think they will have a lot of new users, they are more likely just cutting the costs:

    Opera Software co-founder and former CEO, Jon Stephenson von Tetzchner:

    «The reason for dropping Presto was indeed funding. The current management did not want to do the necessary investments to ensure that Presto stays ahead of the game. The interest has been more in mobile ads and the operator business and in fact Opera has invested heavily there, buying multiple companies at serious premiums».

  • Originally posted by svetivoda:

    Truly speaking it comes to this, Opera Team is giving up loyal users and trying to have new users instead hoping there will be more of them. Sad but thats the way life goes. I'm the one who feel betrayed but hey... you do not owe me enything.

    Indeed... Opera does not owe you anything. You use their software free of charge. It is you who owe them. Unless you are a shareholder with a financial stake in the company, you really have no right to feel betrayed.

  • Originally posted by ersi:

    Originally posted by leushino:

    There was a point there that I tried to convey twice in a row, but you still interpreted it exactly the opposite way. Maybe you are too much tongue-in-cheek, sarcastic, angry, etc. while I'm now carefully presenting the point for you again, for the third time in another way. I have given up hope now that you will get the point, but I'm doing it anyway, out of sheer kindness.

    (snipped)

    What the company is doing now is throwing all this away. Instead of keeping the status as the smallest among the big, they are now producing something that identifies as Chrome/Chromium in the browser statistics. No developer has any reason to test websites against something that is just another Chrome. How can the user base grow now? Obviously it can only shrink.

    You protest to this conclusion by giving two contradictory answers:
    1. Too early to make predictions.
    2. Opera will become a great success. There are only a handful of whiners.

    What should I make of this? As you have said a few times, there are far too many blessings in your life, so coherence is utterly irrelevant to you.

    Well, what "I" make of this is that you frequently resort to personal attacks when others happen to disagree with you. And your attacks become rather nasty. Furthermore your prognostications evidently mean very little to Opera as a company and to several others on this forum who happen to hold a difference of opinion. You see... here's the thing. When someone happens to disagree with your cleverly constructed arguments, that does not necessarily translate into that person being an imbecile and incapable of following them. In truth, holding to such a position (as you do) simply indicates that you are somewhat arrogant (i.e. if he/she cannot agree with me [and I am always right], ergo, he/she must be mentally deficient). In a word: no.

    In addition (there's always an addition, eh?), it doesn't really matter what "you" think or "how" you present your arguments. You have no authority where Opera is concerned. You have no persuasive influence on the company's decisions. And in case you haven't noticed, the company is proceeding with the development of the new browser "in spite of your arguments." Evidently they also do not hold your opinions.

    An aside: having blessings in one's life has no relevant connection with being capable or incapable of following a coherently constructed argument. In my case I simply happen to disagree with you.

    And now it seems to me that there is little point in continuing this discussion. You always resort to personal attacks and I don't appreciate that. So I wish you well. Good-bye.

  • Wrong! I do not owe them anything becouse it is my support (and others like me, of course) who make Opera what it is and makes them money. Certainly do not expect to be payed 🙂 but I DO NOT owe them anything and I'm free to go on and look for really advances browser as Opera used to be.

    "I think this is the end of a beautiful friendship!"

    Nothing more - nothing less.

    ;Edited only to change "enything" to "anything"

  • Originally posted by svetivoda:

    Wrong! I do not owe them anything becouse it is my support (and others like me, of course) who make Opera what it is and makes them money. Certainly do not expect to be payed 🙂 but I DO NOT owe them enything and I'm free to go on and look for really advances browser as Opera used to be.

    "I think this is the end of a beautiful friendship!"

    Nothing more - nothing less.

    This is my point with changing the browser engine your gona piss a lot of people off changing the browser engine every so often I really hope this the end of that. Also before changing the browser should take a community vote I have never seen a poll on the engine change, then again, Opea can do what they want right? Also I think they were unique with their own engine. They need their own engine that's faster than the chrome engine cause really chrome just don't cut it; I hope Oprea does not add any worse crap from chrome like their extensions. they have exploits that may cripple Opera also chrome spys on the user. I never new Opera to spy but Google does and that's a fact I hope Oprea is not on board with this that would be sad if they were?

  • Originally posted by leushino:

    When someone happens to disagree with your cleverly constructed arguments, that does not necessarily translate into that person being an imbecile and incapable of following them.

    The topic of this thread is "why did opera browser change like this?" All you are saying here is "disagree" without any argumentation at all. And you repeat repeat repeat the same in long diatribes devoid of any argumentation, thus simply disrupting the discussion. If you think argumentation is invalid, then what is valid for you? Knowing you from before, I know your answer: authority. But what gives you authority? Who gave it to you? And why do you think authority needs defence by you? You admittedly defend authority very devotedly, but without any reasoning it looks quite silly. And what kind of authority is it anyway when it needs your defence? Rhetorical questions 🙂

    Originally posted by leushino:

    In addition (there's always an addition, eh?), it doesn't really matter what "you" think or "how" you present your arguments. You have no authority where Opera is concerned.

    Apply the same to yourself. When you do, I'll call you fair and balanced.

  • If they did it to increase market share, they're clearly failing:

    See browser statistics by version: Opera 12.1x is holding its ground with only about 1/5th of users having switched to the Chromium-based versions.

    The same is corroborated by Sitepoint's Craig Buckler's analysis of StatCounter numbers:

    The Blink editions of Opera (version 15+) account for 0.2% of the market — or 18% of the browser’s user-base. Opera users normally upgrade quickly so it seems not everyone is convinced by the new version.

  • Originally posted by Raven:

    If they did it to increase market share, they're clearly failing:

    See browser statistics by version: Opera 12.1x is holding its ground with only about 1/5th of users having switched to the Chromium-based versions.

    The same is corroborated by Sitepoint's Craig Buckler's analysis of StatCounter numbers:

    The Blink editions of Opera (version 15+) account for 0.2% of the market — or 18% of the browser’s user-base. Opera users normally upgrade quickly so it seems not everyone is convinced by the new version.

    If we are to take the company's current tagline "we are concentrating on our strengths" literally, then this must indicate that after a feeble attempt at a Chrome clone they will dump desktop browser for good, because this is evidently not their strength. They may keep it only as a mirror and testbox for the mobile browser.

  • Originally posted by ersi:

    If we are to take the company's current tagline "we are concentrating on our strengths" literally, then this must indicate that after a feeble attempt at a Chrome clone they will dump desktop browser for good, because this is evidently not their strength. They may keep it only as a mirror and testbox for the mobile browser.

    But I literally can't use the mobile browser. :right:

  • Originally posted by Frenzie:

    Originally posted by ersi:

    If we are to take the company's current tagline "we are concentrating on our strengths" literally, then this must indicate that after a feeble attempt at a Chrome clone they will dump desktop browser for good, because this is evidently not their strength. They may keep it only as a mirror and testbox for the mobile browser.

    But I literally can't use the mobile browser. :right:

    Looks like Opera 12 literally can't follow those disqus links. However, I think I found your comment.

    Space is a grave issue, yes, on top of the hardware requirements.

    How about the Classic Mobile version?

  • Originally posted by ersi:

    Looks like Opera 12 literally can't follow those disqus links.

    Jumps to and highlights those links just fine here -O12.16

    //edit

    Originally posted by ersi:

    If we are to take the company's current tagline "we are concentrating on our strengths" literally, then this must indicate that after a feeble attempt at a Chrome clone they will dump desktop browser for good

    Looking at what they are doing now, selling fastmail, closing my opera i would say that that's pretty plausible.
    For now the desktop browser is one of the main sources of income. But if it will continue the way it is now...
    Or as von Tetzchner said they'll focus on the advertising business.

  • Originally posted by artmil:

    Originally posted by ersi:

    Looks like Opera 12 literally can't follow those disqus links.

    Jumps to and highlights those links just fine here -O12.16

    Possibly my urlfilter.ini is too strict then. The new comments section is misformatted otherwise too. But I will leave it so.

  • Originally posted by ersi:

    Looks like Opera 12 literally can't follow those disqus links. However, I think I found your comment.

    Works for me, after whitelisting a bunch of Disqus scripts.

    Originally posted by ersi:

    How about the Classic Mobile version?

    That one works as flawlessly as ever, of course.

  • Originally posted by ersi:

    Originally posted by Raven:

    If they did it to increase market share, they're clearly failing:

    See browser statistics by version: Opera 12.1x is holding its ground with only about 1/5th of users having switched to the Chromium-based versions.

    The same is corroborated by Sitepoint's Craig Buckler's analysis of StatCounter numbers:

    The Blink editions of Opera (version 15+) account for 0.2% of the market — or 18% of the browser’s user-base. Opera users normally upgrade quickly so it seems not everyone is convinced by the new version.

    If we are to take the company's current tagline "we are concentrating on our strengths" literally, then this must indicate that after a feeble attempt at a Chrome clone they will dump desktop browser for good, because this is evidently not their strength. They may keep it only as a mirror and testbox for the mobile browser.

    I was waiting for someone to link some numbers! I was curious if this Blink gambit and releasing very early/first was paying off. I am kind of disappointed that it didn't (0.2% ?!) but not terribly surprised. Opera 17 is the best Chrome browser so far, and I like it for that, but it still pales in comparison to 12.16. So now I often have both versions of Opera running these days.

    I really hope that the dev team continues to work hard on Opera Blink to get some of the cool features that Presto had. But after seeing these numbers I am even more wary than before.

  • Originally posted by Raven:

    If they did it to increase market share, they're clearly failing:

    See browser statistics by version: Opera 12.1x is holding its ground with only about 1/5th of users having switched to the Chromium-based versions.

    The same is corroborated by Sitepoint's Craig Buckler's analysis of StatCounter numbers:

    The Blink editions of Opera (version 15+) account for 0.2% of the market — or 18% of the browser’s user-base. Opera users normally upgrade quickly so it seems not everyone is convinced by the new version.

    Sorry, but how can you be so dumb?
    How do you want to compare the adoption of a browser version delivered via auto-update and one which there's no notice it's available?

    Check this for real numbers:
    http://www.zdnet.com/time-to-move-on-final-patch-for-opera-12-due-by-mid-2014-7000023427/

    About half of the Opera desktop users are on 15+ by now.
    (Note: there's no way to know how many are upgrading from a prior version and how many are new users.)

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