Jon von Tetzchner, Opera's founder and former CEO spoke to The Register
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cdysthe last edited by
Hi,
Some clarifications on numbers and Jon leaving Opera below.
Originally posted by Krake:
Originally posted by Sawo:
Another interview with Jon von Tetzchner, which appeared today in the German magazine c't'.
It contains some information about the changes at the company, and the switch to Opera 15.
It is in German, so you may need to use a web translator.
Google translate isn't so bad:
Jon von Tetzchner was co-founder and CEO until early 2010 the Norwegian company Opera Software, which develops the same browser. Mid-2012, he retired from the strife of his company, which since then drives a significantly different course. With Vivaldi.net now reports from Tetzchner back from his Icelandic home. The first goal of startups: building an online community with blogs, forums and mail services, offering the users of the soon closing service My Opera a new home.
In an interview with c't tells of Tetzchner of his plans with Vivaldi and keep his opinions about the new Opera strategy is not behind the mountain.
c't: you have left about two and a half years ago Opera. What did you do in the meantime?
Jon von Tetzchner: I have a little invested in startups, about ten companies, most in Iceland. I founded a startup center in Seltjarnarnes in Reykjavik, where I lived as a child. Here now work 18 companies - the Startup Center was full in a week.
Then I asked myself: Do I want to now only work as a consultant? After a while I thought: No, I must be doing something yourself. In a way, I served the Opera idea by hiring My Opera. I thought for some time, it would be interesting to start a community: a difficult competition, a crazy idea - okay, let's do it.
c't: Is Vivaldi.net planned as a pure My-Opera-clone? It's a bold idea of ??building a community in the age of Facebook ...
of Tetzchner: We think a lot about innovations. We have compiled a comprehensive starter kit, but it will definitely be more. We still are but in an early stage. We have launched a month ago.
From Tetzchners Vivaldi.net to the My Opera community, which is closed in three weeks, which give a new home.
We focus not so obvious to attract users. I think there is room for a site like this. We have always tried in Opera, to be the good guys, and so it is with Vivaldi. There are many former Opera-people, also a few Icelanders. We are a small team, about 20 people, more than half of technicians. The money comes from me, there are no other investors.c't: Where is the business model?
of Tetzchner: We have experience with affiliate deals in Opera, something in the way we could make at Vivaldi. I think there are some ways to make money, without sacrificing the user. We try to focus on privacy and security: It's all encrypted, we play no advertising in the mails. We host in Iceland, only for the delivery of the websites we use Content Delivery Networks.
"There are some ways to earn money without having it at the expense of users."We did not want to spy on our users. Check out our EULA at times, sure, I'm actually proud of. It is not so full of legalese as usual. We try to give the company a human face - as we have done in Opera, and I hope we can do it again here. We want to build something for geeks, make a group of happy people who demand a lot - the target group are the Opera-users.
c't: How big is the My Opera community?
of Tetzchner: There are, I believe, registered more than 10 million, but the number of active participants is much smaller. There were over 35 million visitors per month - I do not understand why Opera closes.
That said, I understand it already, because I know the people who run the company now: look at the revenue and expenditure of My Opera separately, and there was never at Opera efforts to make money - it was something that what we did for our users. But the community has played a central role in building operators, since people all came through word of mouth.
c't: Have you spoken with Opera on the acquisition of My Opera? The founders of Fast Mail've got you down even bought back.
of Tetzchner: One can, I think, to say that the relationship is not optimal. I have a few people over concerns that I would like to take over the community, but they did not give me.
Up to and including version 12 Opera was packed with functions, features and configuration options.
Opera 15 had the flashing engine not much to add except a nice user interface with "Discovery" and "Stash".
c't: What browser do you use anyway?
of Tetzchner: Still Opera 12
c't: Am I doing even occasionally, but he is aging fast ...
of Tetzchner: Yes, it's a bit like a burning ship - at some point you have to stop the machine. The interesting thing is: Of the approximately 330 million Opera users still use the 300 million Opera 12
***Clarification on the numbers:
Opera has somewhere north of 330 million users. Of these users:- 248 million are using Mini.
- 22 million are using Mobile.
- 51 million are using Desktop.
- 30 million are using Opera on Wii, DS and other devices. I think that number sounds high, but lets go with it. These are all Opera numbers.Out of these, all Mini users are using Presto. More than half of the desktop users are using Presto, using 3rd party stats. All Wii, DS and other device users are using Presto. Mobile, I am not sure, but I would expect a significant number of the 22 million are using Presto.
Out of these, all Mini users are using Presto. More than half of the desktop users are using Presto, using 3rd party stats. All Wii, DS and other
device users are using Presto. Mobile, I am not sure, but I would expect a significant number of the 22 million areusing Presto.Adding this all together, it is clear that about 300 millon of the 330 or 350 million users are using Presto, the browser engine powering Opera 12***
c't: That would not bode well for Opera's move to WebKit.
of Tetzchner: It was the wrong move. It has apparently taken the decision at the beginning of 2010, when I stopped - at least you heard back then on to invest in the development team. You have people no longer replaced, who have left, gradually the code was less competitive. And we all know that you have to give everything when you compete against Google, Apple and Mozilla.
"A lot of smart people have left Opera."Clarification: Jon quit Opera in June 2011 after leaving the position of CEO in January 2010.
c't: Many Opera users were shocked when they saw Opera 15.
of Tetzchner: We could have said: Okay, let's take WebKit, we use our resources to build a great UI. But in reality, there were the people for not, because the had ceased or been fired.
A lot of smart people have left Opera. When I stopped, about 750 people worked at Opera. Now while there are more, but over 300 people have since ceased, especially from the core team. The focus is now more on advertising and on the financial side, not in the products - and Opera was a product company.
c't: Did you then actually voluntarily ceased as CEO?
of Tetzchner: It was my decision, but it was a long, long struggle preceded, and I was really exhausted. I hoped with Lars Boilesen there would be continuity, because he had worked as my Head of Sales, but I should find out quickly that this would not be so.
The investors wanted the company in a different direction when I draw - rather in the holding of the financial market is right, instead of trying to make the end user happy. I have seven years fought against, to sell the company or to neglect the desktop browser.
I left the company in a very good condition. We had doubled our user base of 50 to 100 million and continued to grow, even without new features. I left the company with 100 million U.S. dollars in the bank. This money is spent obviously, because they had a new round of financing. You have company bought, which is expensive.
The financial market seems to be very happy with how the company is run. I am sad when I see what has happened with my company. It goes completely in the opposite direction from the one where I was going. This change in direction was the reason that I no more than a kind of spirit was standing in the background and Opera in 2012 finally left. Then perhaps accelerated the development, but the real break was already done.
Sentimental farewell gesture: As a kind of Easter Egg developers smuggled in Opera 12 a letter to her retired founder of the company a.
c't: Do you feel that you have destroyed your life's work?
of Tetzchner: I think Opera could have achieved much more. For 2013, we had 500 million users as the target. Had we continued on our way, we would have, I think, done. The two features that have been added since my departure, are Discovery and Stash. On the other hand a lot of things have disappeared.
And Coast, the new tablet browser, I see myself more as a cool prototypes. Previously, we have implemented projects such as Turbo or Unite, which was a major innovation. Unite matches the direction in which the Internet developed more peer-to-peer, not everything in the cloud.
"When you're in an area pioneer, one comes in a very good position when one catches up after a while the trend."c't: Unite was, I believe, the first thing that Opera has adjusted after your departure. I always had the impression that the users have not understood then what you could do with it.
of Tetzchner: I had the idea that we can improve further Unite - that was only version 1.0. Peer-to-Peer is now a big trend, as the Internet of Things. We have started doing in 2005. That was very early, as much of what we did.
We started with mobile browsers in 1999. At that time, people said that mobile browsers do not make sense, one should take WAP. I believe that if one is a pioneer in a field and continue working on it, you get into a very good position when one catches up after a while the trend. Therefore we need long-term investments.
Now Opera invested more in the purchase of other companies - as Skyfire, what ever did not make sense to me. Of course I'm sad that she threw away Unite, but I'm also sad that she threw away bookmarks and a lot of other things that use the people.
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A Former User last edited by
Originally posted by Sawo:
52 million in August, 51 million by December.
It's easy to play that game. You should have checked the data relating to desktop Opera Presto (11~12) before. :rolleyes: 60 million in 1st quarter of 2012, 52 in 2nd quarter of 2013 - that was with Opera PRESTO.
http://www.operasoftware.com/company/investors/financeOriginally posted by Sawo:
For the company it seems every download and install is counted as "users being on the new product".
Nope, I remember they saying they count active users. Opera phones home at least for BrowserJS so they know it.
Also, worth mentioning other bit of info in the 4Q2013 presentation that is "Cuts churn by more than 25%", Haavard explains this in Twitter as "(more users are sticking with the new version than the old one)".Originally posted by Sawo:
"Major part of user base is now on the new product"
Like many other users on these forums, I keep downloading, installing, and trying out every new release of Opera Blink - in the vain hope of seeing it develop into something worth using. So far, no joy. Opera 12.16 is better in every respect but site compatibility, for a handful of cases. And in unfortunate fact, every other Chrome Clone on the market is better than Opera Blink, too.
Major part of the user base still disagrees with you... Just saying.
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A Former User last edited by
Originally posted by cdysthe:
Clarification on the numbers:
Opera has somewhere north of 330 million users. Of these users:- 248 million are using Mini.
- 22 million are using Mobile.
- 51 million are using Desktop.
- 30 million are using Opera on Wii, DS and other devices. I think that number sounds high, but lets go with it. These are all Opera numbers.Out of these, all Mini users are using Presto. More than half of the desktop users are using Presto, using 3rd party stats. All Wii, DS and other device users are using Presto. Mobile, I am not sure, but I would expect a significant number of the 22 million are using Presto.
Out of these, all Mini users are using Presto. More than half of the desktop users are using Presto, using 3rd party stats. All Wii, DS and other
device users are using Presto. Mobile, I am not sure, but I would expect a significant number of the 22 million areusing Presto.Adding this all together, it is clear that about 300 millon of the 330 or 350 million users are using Presto, the browser engine powering Opera 12
It makes sense, it's misleading in the interview as it says "Opera 12".
Still, I think he tries to convince us of the statement following it ("It was the wrong move.") by saying those kinds of things, but another points to pay attention to are:
- Of course Mini users are still on Presto, there's no Mini-Blink. Until a new Mini product or version not based on Presto is released there's no way to measure success using the number of Mini users.
- Opera 12 users still haven't received any auto-update notification so many don't even know a new version exists.Regarding the third-party statistics, there's no point on relying on them as Opera already publicly stated >50% of the desktop user base is on the new Opera 15+.
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Deleted User last edited by
Originally posted by rafaelluik:
Nope, I remember they saying they count active users. Opera phones home at least for BrowserJS so they know it.
Opera defines who an "active user" is, by what criteria we don't know.
As for browser.js, in both versions 12 & 15+, it is downloaded & installed automatically, unless updates are manually turned off:
Opera automatically checks for updates to Browser JavaScript once every week. Any updates will be automatically downloaded and applied the next time a page is loaded in Opera. http://www.opera.com/docs/browserjs/
So merely trying out Opera Blink can be enough to get it download, if that should be what constitutes an "active user",
Originally posted by rafaelluik:
Major part of the user base still disagrees with you... Just saying.
Just saying you are a major part of the user base, together with leushino?
Sure, there have been positive opinions on Opera 15+ in these forums - I remember them from about 3-4 different accounts.
There have also been unfavorable ones, from a lot more than that, but of course there are all "whiners" and don't count.P.S.
in 2nd quarter of 2013 - that was with Opera PRESTO
The switch to Blink was announced in February of 2013, the version 15 beta was published in May.
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missingno last edited by
Opium still uses browser.js? Wasn't the purpose of it to "hack" site compatibility with Presto and the purpose of the switch to Blink to have this site compatibility out of the box and therefor save the hassle of having (to maintain) a browser.js?
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rafaeljvieira last edited by
Originally posted by missingno:
Opium still uses browser.js? Wasn't the purpose of it to "hack" site compatibility with Presto and the purpose of the switch to Blink to have this site compatibility out of the box and therefor save the hassle of having (to maintain) a browser.js?
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Deleted User last edited by
Originally posted by missingno:
Opium still uses browser.js? Wasn't the purpose of it to "hack" site compatibility with Presto and the purpose of the switch to Blink to have this site compatibility out of the box and therefor save the hassle of having (to maintain) a browser.js?
Yes it does, strangely enough. Visit http://www.opera.com/docs/browserjs/ with any version of Opera Blink and check for yourself:
Current browser.js status: enabled. Target version and time stamp of the active browser.js file is Opera OPRDesktop 15.00 core 1326.63, February 7, 2014. Active patches: 15 .To see the current source code of the surprisingly persistent browser.js, go to this URL:
https://github.com/operasoftware/browserjs/blob/master/OPRdesktop/browserjs-15.0.js
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tradeofjane last edited by
Originally posted by leushino:
The team that developed it is essentially gone.
But wait, doesn't that contradict the claim that everyone who worked on Presto is still working there? Funny, I thought everything was ice cream in rainbows in the wonderful world of Opera.
Originally posted by leushino:
There is NO turning back now and no matter how many threads are begun stating the disenchantment with the new browser or bemoaning the loss of features of the former, Opera Next is the new browser and the only browser that will be developed... period. If there are features you would like to see added back, be respectful (something that appears very difficult for you) and state them in the developers' blogs where they will have a better chance of being noticed. In the meantime, you can easily continue using a Presto version alongside the newer Blink version "if" you want to see how Opera Next is developing. If that is not satisfactory and does not meet your needs, then use another browser. In all of this, whining, complaining, swearing, threatening, bullying, labelling etc etc etc are both counter-productive and somewhat indicative of "other" problems (which I will mercifully leave unsaid).
And if you don't like people complaining about how badly ChrOpera sucks, stop acting like a paid shill and b*tching about everyone who b*tches about Opera.
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Deleted User last edited by
Originally posted by Tradeofjane:
And if you don't like people complaining about how badly ChrOpera sucks, stop acting like a paid shill and b*tching about everyone who b*tches about Opera.
Take a deep breath. No need to show your true colors with vulgar language. :whistle:
The forums are intended for members HELPING members. Really, that is the long and short of it. I know you believe it helps your cause (and that of the other complainers) by labelling others, using foul language, threatening, bullying and generally disrupting but that is against the tos. Please abide by them.
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tradeofjane last edited by
Originally posted by leushino:
The forums are intended for members HELPING members. Really, that is the long and short of it. I know you believe it helps your cause (and that of the other complainers) by labelling others, using foul language, threatening, bullying and generally disrupting but that is against the tos. Please abide by them.
And who the hell have you helped? You're only here to do damage control for Opera.
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Deleted User last edited by
Such an angry little man. Ah well... hopefully your type of trolling is nearing an end.
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caghans last edited by
Originally posted by rafaelluik:
The difference, perhaps, is that we have more people now than we used to. That's how we can do proper integration on all platforms. We actually have the resources to do a properly integrated user interface now.
duuudeee....
news flash!
you ruined it all up. come on! it was a huge mistake to change the interface, you removed simply everything that makes the opera unique.you are the "keeping it real fake chrome" right now. with all respect to your hard work and dedication to your company and friends etc.. but these are not the same things. i mean, this is a ruined, down in the sewer product so far (on pc i mean).
for example coast is great, every opera on phones, awesome. but other than that, opera on desktop... wow, so much backwards, so chrome... very usual, nothing special
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A Former User last edited by
Originally posted by Sawo:
So merely trying out Opera Blink can be enough to get it download, if that should be what constitutes an "active user"
Noo, idiot, of course after about a week or month if there's no new request from the same user they take it out of the count.
Disabling auto-update in Opera-Presto doesn't stop BrowserJS fetching (or something else that also phones home, I don't remember).Originally posted by Sawo:
Just saying you are a major part of the user base, together with leushino?
Sure, there have been positive opinions on Opera 15+ in these forums - I remember them from about 3-4 different accounts.
There have also been unfavorable ones, from a lot more than that, but of course there are all "whiners" and don't count.No, I'm talking about the official numbers you're happy to ignore when it makes you feel better.
As aways said, the forums constitute a minority of users and it's observable that people are more prone to come to bash or talk when they have problems than to come out of nowhere with motivation to praise.Originally posted by Sawo:
P.S.
in 2nd quarter of 2013 - that was with Opera PRESTO
The switch to Blink was announced in February of 2013, the version 15 beta was published in May.
A version that most users didn't even knew about at the time and don't know about even up to this day. A version that if caused anything would be based on a too early judgment because the users would have to assume it was feature-complete.
I don't believe it was the reason for the decline of number of users...
You can see the drop already happening before February, before the announcement about the switch to Chromium... -
A Former User last edited by
from vivladi
seems like Jon is preparing new browserhttps://www.facebook.com/vivaldi.browser
https://twitter.com/VivaldiBrowser/
http://whois.domaintools.com/vivaldibrowser.com
http://whois.domaintools.com/vivaldibrowser.netall those acc's were registered around 6-7 months ago
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A Former User last edited by
Originally posted by vux777:
seems like Jon is preparing new browser
Hmm so first bashing the competition to prepare ground...?
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alf5000 last edited by
Originally posted by vux777:
from vivladi
seems like Jon is preparing new browser
light at the end of the tunnel??? -
A Former User last edited by
Originally posted by rafaelluik:
Hmm so first bashing the competition to prepare ground...?
Regardless Jon is preparing ground for new browser or not, lots of unhappy users (with new Opera) agree with him
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Deleted User last edited by
Noo, idiot, of course after about a week or month if there's no new request from the same user they take it out of the count.
Disabling auto-update in Opera-Presto doesn't stop BrowserJS fetching (or something else that also phones home, I don't remember).Insults already? You are living up to your reputation…
From the page on browser.js:
Automatic checking is controlled by the Browser JavaScript and Check For New Opera settings in Opera6.ini.
And the explanations of the settings file OperaPrefs.ini
Browser JavaScript Whether to download and use the browser.js file. Enable by setting to 1, Opera will then download the file and set to 2. 0 = Never download or use 2 = Use and check for updates weekly 1 = browser.js signature invalid. On next check for update, a new browser.js will be downloaded and the value set to 2.Is there any actual proof for your assertions on what an "active user" is, and how they are counted?
Or are you just making things up as needed, so you can affect an air of superiority?As aways said, the forums constitute a minority of users and it's observable that people are more prone to come to bash or talk when they have problems than to come out of nowhere with motivation to praise.
Yes, as you have always said, time and again, in the face of anyone with opinions different from yours.
In a pompous, self-righteous and ranting tone, to the point of nausea.Couldn't you just talk to yourself in the future, without involving the forums? You'd get a more appreciative audience, and It would save everyone else a lot of exasperation. In the interest of Opera, I hope as few as possible of your "contributions" will make the transition on March 1. No need to discourage any potential users with a bad impression of its user community.
Please don't bother with a reply, this discussion ends now for me.
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blackbird71 last edited byOriginally posted by Sawo:
As aways said, the forums constitute a minority of users and it's observable that people are more prone to come to bash or talk when they have problems than to come out of nowhere with motivation to praise.
Yes, as you have always said, time and again, in the face of anyone with opinions different from yours...
FWIW, in an extremely limited sample (that perhaps still makes a general point), I personally know of exactly 11 other persons in my close circle who use Opera. Only one of us has even tested out New Opera. I am the only one of all of us registered at My Opera or who has ever posted here, in large part because I've installed most of their Opera installations for them and have answered their ongoing questions, in some cases by coming here and asking on their behalf. I believe that the simple reality is that for most kinds of software, the great majority of users don't ever register at a forum and ask questions - and certainly, most don't register just to make comments unless they're both extremely upset and are activist/sanguine by nature.
The point is that a software forum - any software forum - is a fairly good cross section of only a very small segment of users... it provides little accurate insight into what the great mass of users are actually doing or thinking at that same time. That is, software forums have an inherent, natural bias among the broad universe of users. This forum is no exception. None of this is to say what the broad mass of Opera users think about the redesign. I'm not sure anybody (including Opera ASA) yet knows an accurate answer to that. My personal opinion is that most users would currently find New Opera "uncomfortable" to some degree compared with their Old Opera, but most haven't even looked into it - but, of course, that's purely my opinion and conjectural based on my own circle of personal knowledge. Eventually the various market data counts and summaries will begin consistently telling the story; until then, nobody really knows.
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A Former User last edited by
Originally posted by Sawo:
Noo, idiot, of course after about a week or month if there's no new request from the same user they take it out of the count.
Disabling auto-update in Opera-Presto doesn't stop BrowserJS fetching (or something else that also phones home, I don't remember).Insults already? You are living up to your reputation…
From the page on browser.js:
Automatic checking is controlled by the Browser JavaScript and Check For New Opera settings in Opera6.ini.
And the explanations of the settings file OperaPrefs.ini
Browser JavaScript Whether to download and use the browser.js file. Enable by setting to 1, Opera will then download the file and set to 2. 0 = Never download or use 2 = Use and check for updates weekly 1 = browser.js signature invalid. On next check for update, a new browser.js will be downloaded and the value set to 2.Is there any actual proof for your assertions on what an "active user" is, and how they are counted?
Or are you just making things up as needed, so you can affect an air of superiority?http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=how+opera+counts+active+users
You'll find this blog post by Haavard.
You'll find an old interview with Jon where he says how they count active users ("We have people checking of updates and that's when we count them.").
And also Bruce Lawson here in the comments.
Believe it or not, it's by some kind of update-checking. And in Mini it's obvious they can use the necessary connection to the servers to count.LOL and you think the number of people who disabled BrowserJS or any sort of updates is high enough to twist the numbers? What a joke.
