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Opera 15/16/17/18/19/20+ - The Chrome Wars

  • "Version numbers don't mean anything to anyone anymore", really? Every update, especially major ones, to other browsers, or operating systems, always have a list of what's changed, so the user can determine, if they'd like, whether to update or not. Lately, Apple's been releasing updates, that like the current Opera, has greatly pissed off many, many longtime users (like iTunes 11, & some of the Safari & OS updates have eliminated various features, or changed them, and not for the better), however, they are obviously not in danger of dropping off the map, as they have a far greater market share than Opera.

    Had I known that Opera 16 would eliminate Bookmarks, & other customization features, I'd probably not have updated, for I wrongly assumed that updates to Opera would be equivalent to upgrades.... So yes, the near total lack of communication, coupled with the varied & sometimes erroneous or conflicting information from some of the heavy posters in this forum, has only added to the frustration of many users. There's nothing worse for a company than to give their customers/users the feeling they don't give a damn about them, or their experience. And to be left in the dark, after suddenly finding features we'd become accustomed to using (not only in Opera, but with every other browser) disappear, with no explanation or communication as to what will or won't be returning, and when, is not the way to build a loyal customer base, much less retain those they already have.

    The only reason I care, at this point, is that while it's lately been prone to freezing & crashing (& then automatically re-opening, which is odd, & not so good a thing), it seems to be able to be open, with a lot of windows/tabs, without totally bogging down, a good bit longer than FF, Safari, & Chrome....

    I sure wish we could get some definite, or at least approximate (but accurate) answers to the various questions many of us have....

  • Originally posted by woj-tek:

    Opera boasted that they released 4 major versions this year

    Could you link to that?

  • @Frenzie

    • 4 major Opera releases
    • 11 Opera maintenance releases
    • 27 Opera Next releases
    • 18 Opera Developer releases

    source

  • Originally posted by woj-tek:

    Originally posted by sgunhouse:

    Actually, about Opera 10, Opera was the most customizable browser (no matter what Firefox said). It may not have had as many extensions (or even had extensions at all - I forget when we got extensions) but you could add buttons, create your own menus, gestures or keyboard shortcuts, and even modify the dialogs if they didn't fit your netbook screen or whatever.

    Your answer - http://otter-browser.org/ - basically a project aiming to mimic Opera 12.x UI and functions. It's still in early stages (AFAIKR alpha 1 binaries will be released tomorrow), it's based on Qt5 with (currently) WebKit as rendering engine (author mentions Blink in the feature, possibly other?). From the looks of the screenshots it looks promissing - basically what Opera promised - an old Opera 12 UI with webkit/blink engine underneath.

    Actually it's not going to clone Opera 12.x The developer says that he want to implement Opera-like features very selectively...
    Also, for unknown reason i can't access Otter browser's web-page from Russian ip address.

  • Now, if one guy can make a simple but working Opera-like browser with Webkit in two months, what the (bleep) the Opera developers did last year beside, ahem, polishing their magic flute?

  • Relax leushino. I am taking my lead from American management of American companies. Some of them regularly shock their European colleagues by explaining how dumbed down products and product instructions need to be for the American market.

  • Originally posted by StevenCee:

    ... ...
    The only reason I care, at this point, is that ... ... it seems to be able to be open, with a lot of windows/tabs, without totally bogging down, a good bit longer than FF, Safari, & Chrome....

    Right with you there. Opera has been the browser for handling a huge volume of work.

    What am I going to do with 11474 bookmarks??????????????????

  • Originally posted by jimf671:

    ... I am taking my lead from American management of American companies. Some of them regularly shock their European colleagues by explaining how dumbed down products and product instructions need to be for the American market.

    It's not strictly an American management style, hence the objections.

    I first saw it in practice some years ago within the products of large multi-national corporations, some of which were owned/based in Europe or Asia. It's based on a legitimate idea: if a product usage requires a certain level of technical expertise, the less expertise required to use it opens up the largest potential marketplace - because the lower the technical intelligence of humans, the greater the cumulative numbers of such folks with that or higher intelligence.

    However, there is a glaring assumption in that concept: that more lower-expertise folks will adopt such a product than high-expertise folks will avoid or abandon it, and it's by no means assured that such an assumption is valid for a given product design for a given market. Right now, this is the very issue looming before Opera and their redesign.

  • Originally posted by woj-tek:

    Originally posted by StevenCee:

    "Version numbers don't mean anything to anyone anymore", really?

    Yup!
    and thus Opera boasted that they released 4 major versions this year - ROTFL 😃

    I think you're being a bit disingenuous. The link does not say what you think it says. It merely points to the fact that Opera has made many quick releases over the past year NOT that the version numbers are important or meaningful to anyone as they once were. The truth is, version numbers hardly mean anything for any of the browsers anymore. Some folks here are trumpeting Firefox and the be-all and end-all and yet they're at version 26 and their users have been yelling for over a year now to stop following the Chrome trend in quick releases BUT that is the new reality. Opera is simply following suit and I don't see it ever returning to what it once was. And it doesn't matter what browser you finally decide to hang your hat upon... they're all doing the same thing so you'd better get used to it.

  • Actually, in these same forums and in the dev blogs over the past few years, I've seen all manner of criticism of a given Opera version number precisely because the poster disagreed that either the release merited a major rev number, or conversely, that it should have been given a more major release assignment than it received.

    Reality: nowhere is it inherently written in product design and release that a product numbering system should follow any particular scheme. Major/minor rev numbers are simply a kind of custom that has grown up within software, assuming that "major" releases get a higher base number, whereas "minor" releases get a decimal or dash number off the major number. But there is no agreed-upon rule as to what constitutes "major" or "minor" - just some conventions that seem to offer some consistency, but with no guarantees. So the major/minor system is totally subjective in the end.

    It is at least as reasonable to simply number/name emerging models or versions sequentially. Or even randomly. Nobody I've known has ever sought an automobile, food processor, or computer because it was numbered "Model 10.3, replacing model 10.2".

  • Originally posted by Krake:

    @Frenzie

    • 4 major Opera releases
    • 11 Opera maintenance releases
    • 27 Opera Next releases
    • 18 Opera Developer releases

    source

    Oh, I glossed over that because of a bug(?) in their newsfeeds where the post gets the date it was written rather than the date it was published. I'm going to have to check my own Wordpress blog to see if it exhibits the same behavior. It was in my feeds, but showed up as December 17, 2013.

  • Originally posted by leushino:

    Some folks here are trumpeting Firefox and the be-all and end-all and yet they're at version 26 and their users have been yelling for over a year now to stop following the Chrome trend in quick releases BUT that is the new reality.

    If you're talking about me, that was hardly my intent. Firefox has gone greatly downhill since 3.6.* That being said, Firefox is still Firefox, give or take a few regressions.

    * Firefox 3.6 and Opera 10.10 both came out in 2010. To me they're starting to represent the glamor of a bygone era.

  • Originally posted by leushino:

    their users have been yelling for over a year now to stop following the Chrome trend in quick releases BUT that is the new reality.

    and where did that reality bring them ?
    I remember few months ago installing FF 18 on one machine, and it is unstable RAM eating hog (pretty much same what "new" opera is)
    they are now at what ? 25 - 26 ? - and nothing has changed

    rapid release cycle = no time for bug tests nor proper bug fixes, and feature creep - bloating every new version with more and more untested stuff
    is that a good reality ?

  • It's 2014 now. RAM is cheap and modern computers have no problem handling today's browsers. I'm currently using a five year old Dell and I NEVER have crashes with any of the browsers (just ordered a new Lenovo but only to take advantage of the touch screen since my older Dell is still stable with all these programs).

    Frenzie, I was not referring to you regarding the pushing of Firefox. I'm using Firefox myself (v.26) along with Opera 18, IE 11 and Chrome 31. I fully agree with Haavard that version numbers no longer mean much. As I mentioned earlier, many manufacturers are stopping the numbering of iPads, Antivirus programs are killing the version numbers which previously used dates and browsers are all on rapid release cycles. Do I like it? Not really... but I can't change it so why complain about it? It is what it is and no amount of whining will change it.

    And as for the bloating, I don't care about it. My computer handles the resource requirements fine and my new computer will handle them even better. Those who want to hang on to old operating systems (i.e. XP) and old computers are going to find themselves in an increasingly dangerous environment. Better to update your stuff and move with the tide. And moving may mean leaving Opera for SeaMonkey or Firefox or what have you. In a round about way it reminds me of those members who still believe that Opera will reverse its decision on dismantling MyOpera. If only they can get enough signatures on a petition! If only they can convince Opera that his is a bad move! If only! We all know that this is simply not going to happen and that the only prudent thing to do is export your files to a new home while you have time. Prepare rather than wringing your hands in despair. And the same goes for this switch from Presto to Blink. They're not going to reverse their decision. It's too late and there's too much money and time invested now. So... you move 'with' them or you leave. You can move 'with' them by continuing for a time with the older version but keeping a copy of the new version on your computer as well. You can also make your voice known in the Dev. blogs so that they know what features you would like to see. But making endless swan song posts here is of little use. I suppose it's understandable due to the frustration, but it's also pretty much a waste of time and energy.

  • Since I'm getting some visits from this topic and these forums are going to be disabled anyway (coincidentally at the time when first beta is planned to be released, if current speed will be kept) I've decided to blow dust from my old account. 😉

    @woj-tek, thanks for sharing link here, I wasn't brave enough to do that. 🙂

    Originally posted by Pesala:

    If you expect or hope for a complete copy of Opera 12.16 you will inevitably be disappointed. Start looking for another browser now. If you're willing to adapt, and install a few extensions, you may find it worth upgrading before Opera 12.16 becomes obsolete.

    Don't be so pessimistic, Rome wasn't built during one night. 😉
    It won't be clone, but it will be inspired as much as it is possible, makes sense and is doable.

    If someone has more questions then I suggest to ask them on IRC (#otter-browser on freenode), I'm planning to expand FAQ too.

    BTW, project management really eats lots of time, more than coding itself. 😃

  • Originally posted by Emdek:

    Don't be so pessimistic, Rome wasn't built during one night. 😉

    I am not being pessimistic at all — just realistic. I said five months ago to Give it a Year, before it would be worth discussing whether it would make the grade.

    Then I said “I cannot customise my shortcuts, gestures, search engines, etc.” — and that is still the case, except for search engines, though they are still not as customisable as in Opera 11.64.

    How long do you expect users to wait? One year, two, three? I can use Opera 11.64 for the rest of my life — I doubt if others will.

  • @Pesala, I think we have some kind of misunderstanding here. 😉

    I don't believe at all that new Opera will fulfill all needs of old power users accustomed to classic 12.x.
    It may regain basic stuff but it takes extremely long (I'm 99% sure that one year passed since decision to move on was done internally and work started, or will pass soon) and since I've read in late May that some of features won't return for sure I've decided that I have to do something with that (repository was created around June 1st). 🙂

    Sadly to say I'm afraid that myself I've done more progress during two months (real work started in November, as Opera hasn't shown signs of returning to normal, not even releasing promised binaries for Linux) than whole team (yes, it is not a secret that desktop wasn't profitable enough and team is now smaller, but still it is a team, of paid developers :-))...

    Maybe Opera will revive, but with great cost to itself and old users.
    I cannot wait for eternity on old 12.x. 🙂

  • Originally posted by Emdek:

    If someone has more questions then I suggest to ask them on IRC (#otter-browser on freenode), I'm planning to expand FAQ to

    I can't seem to find it on FreeNode, Europe.

  • @Frenzie, that is weird:

    - Welcome to rothfuss.freenode.net in Paris, France, EU! Thanks to
    - the ISVTEC for sponsoring this server!

    There are currently 16 users connected.

  • Pesala

    I am not being pessimistic at all — just realistic. I said five months ago to Give it a Year, before it would be worth discussing whether it would make the grade.

    Then I said “I cannot customise my shortcuts, gestures, search engines, etc.” — and that is still the case, except for search engines, though they are still not as customisable as in Opera 11.64.

    How long do you expect users to wait? One year, two, three? I can use Opera 11.64 for the rest of my life — I doubt if others will.

    Is there is place for optimism?
    Seems that you havn't read the interview with their PR team that related to future plans.
    They have no goal, technical abilities and managment decision to rebuild the great Opera browser.
    Chropera is a death born child. It should even be call a web-browser (the "shell" is better term).