What percentage of people are adapting well to the new Opera?

blackbird71

blackbird71

...
Now @blackbird71, you think/hope Opera will have nowhere to go but back to the Presto universe of more and more configurability? I wouldn't go to the bank on that one I think that Presto approach was a dead end -- not viable financially. I mean, if even the bottomless financial mega-giants aren't going that route, what would make you think a much more financially limited company could do it. I think Opera will find a way, within the limitations of the engine (the fact that others are using the same thing), to out-perform by being innovative, creative . . .
...

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree about some aspects of that. The "bottomless financial mega-giants" aren't going 'that route' for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is that free web browsers, to them, are packaged goods designed to support other corporate agendas. One could reverse your observation just as easily... what would make you think those "financial mega-giants" aren't able to innovate and be creative to a greater extent than a "financially limited" company like Opera? Or simply copy and refine whatever Opera innovates upon? That kind of outfit invented Webkit and Chrome to start with, after all, and set in motion a galaxy of offshoot browsers... and every single one of those Chromish offshoot browsers remains a minor-league player, some of them after years of trying. Perhaps they simply lack the creativity or innovative sense that Opera possesses, but that might also be a dangerous over-simplification of some underlying realities.

In one sense, I'm a believer in the fact (not opinion) that companies who receive negative customer feedback absolutely need to look carefully at the specific pinch-points that prompt the feedback. Companies that dismiss such complaints as customers who just don't understand, are stuck in their ways, or are either too dumb or stubborn to "adapt" are companies that will find eventually find themselves out of touch with their base and ultimately out of the market. While you (and perhaps Opera) might think they'll just create a new and bigger base of other new users, that base will necessarily consist of users easily wooed from other browsers for "flashy" kinds of reasons-'d-jour. And such a base will just as quickly desert them as soon as a competitive browser comes up with its own bigger kind of "flashiness"... there is no real loyalty in such a zero-sum world.

Repeatedly, old Opera users and newcomers alike have observed and complained of various kinds of 'awkwardness' with Opera's current bookmarking. Ditto for per-site settings, side panels, lack of tab/tool bar configurability, and so on. One can always dismiss these complaints by telling them to use extensions, or that they need to adapt to the New Order... but that is doing precisely what a smart company will never do: simply dismiss the pinch-points. These complaining people are telling us that Opera as presently delivered has problems itself that users are discovering, noting, and writing Opera about. Most of those complaints can be summed up in the term "configurability".

If Opera is half as smart, creative, and innovative as you think (and I hope), they should be able to eventually address at least some these issues themselves without simply blowing off the sources of the complaints. @leushino and @lem729, I'm neither advocating Presto or a return to a 'Presto universe". But I am hoping (obviously no longer secretly) that Opera will eventually address at least some of these user-configuration issues creatively within the browser itself. Otherwise, I fear Opera will ultimately be performing a 6-foot leap across a 10-foot ditch in pursuit of a market it sees on the other side.

lem729

lem729

Ahhhh, you hope Opera eventually addresses some user-configuration issues . . . Well, sure. I have no problem with that, though I thought maybe you went a tad bit further when you said: "Frankly, my secret hope is that Opera, in order to obtain the necessary distinctiveness needed to survive in the marketplace, will gradually discover that it has to turn back to providing elements of the user control that was for so long its hallmark under Presto." On the other hand, if you just said, some additional elements of user control are desireable -- and didn't mention Presto in the same breath -- I would've been right on board. (I just wasn't sure how far you were going with the Presto reference). I mean, why shouldn't users have a right to opt out of Opera reviewing all the website we go to, because it wants to be able to warn us of fraudulent/phishing sites (there are privacy issues there), or to have control over whether to take an update, over the size of menus or icon bar, to name a few user control issues. I think accessibility is an important issue. What good is a browser if one can't read the menus?

Deleted User

Deleted User

That's a basic problem, @leushino By toolbar are you referring to the icon extension bar? Strangely, and I can't figure this out at all, I can barely make sense of the icon extension bar in Firefox, the icons are so tiny there. But in Opera 22, they're fine for me. I'm using Windows 7. I've stopped using Firefox much as a backup browser to Opera 22 because of how bad/incomprehensible the tiny icons are. Isn't it odd, my problem with Firefox icons in Windows 7 is the flip side of your problem with Opera 22 extension icons. It seems to be related to the interaction of Windows 7 and Windows 8 with these browsers.

I'm on Windows 8.1 and have just the opposite issue of yours, lem729. I'm not a fan of FF but it's far
more readable so it is currently my default. And yes... it is odd. I'm certain this issue will soon be
resolved.

blackbird71

blackbird71

Ahhhh, you hope Opera eventually addresses some user-configuration issues . . . Well, sure. I have no problem with that, though I thought maybe you went a tad bit further when you said: "Frankly, my secret hope is that Opera, in order to obtain the necessary distinctiveness needed to survive in the marketplace, will gradually discover that it has to turn back to providing elements of the user control that was for so long its hallmark under Presto." On the other hand, if you just said, some additional elements of user control are desireable -- and didn't mention Presto in the same breath -- I would've been right on board. (I just wasn't sure how far you were going with the Presto reference). ...

Probably I wasn't clear enough in my choice of wording. What always impressed me about Opera ASA in the Presto days was its responsiveness to user needs, and which acted to make the browser into a convenient tool to use in various scenarios for a wide array of users. As we all realize, each Old Opera user (or any user, for that matter) has a 'short list' of things he feels he needs in a browser. As the "needs" from different users in voiced complaints are overlaid on each other, certain ones will stand out as common to many user complaints... and those are the ones that are user 'pinch-points' for the browser. Having watched the forum threads both here and in MyOpera, its clear to me that the ones mentioned above by @eldani or myself are some of the ones that recur many times over... they're pinch-points. Certainly there are many configurability elements from the Presto era that may never re-appear - some because they're minor, some because they're now obsolete on the web, and some because there are only so many things that can be done without disrupting design strategy and the budget.

But there has been a 'temper' or 'flavor' in quite a few user complaint threads, and frankly in some developer comments, that are rather dismissive of those more common issues cited earlier in this thread - and the people raising them. As I've noted in other places in the forum, extensions have their place, but they'e not a cure-all; there are some recognizable performance problems with extensions which attempt to substitute for, or supplement, Opera's current performance (or lack) in these areas of more common complaint. It's to your ( @lem729 ) great credit that you so often go the extra mile to point out relevant extensions for folks having "issues", but for some users in some situations, extensions don't "cut it" like a built-in functionality. And it's in these commonly-voiced areas that Opera should be paying serious attention to the nature and foci of the negative user feedback. However, as @eldani has pointed out in a different thread (https://forums.opera.com/post/43420), significant time has now passed for Blink Opera with not much to show in terms of design response (and even less to show in terms of developer comments) to the more-common user complaints of configurability omissions. Time goes by quickly in the technical world, Internet time goes by even faster. That perceived slowness of Opera to respond to the complaints, coupled with the all-too-common drift in forum responses toward dismissiveness of complaints, combine to raise concern that perhaps Opera is simply ignoring the negative feedback. One can only hope, however, that Opera has learned something about the dangers of that, back when the first backlash deluged the forums, largely because users felt Opera wasn't communicating with them about their concerns, and about which Opera promised to do much better.

lem729

lem729

Well, Opera, I'm sure, is not disinterested in feedback, though they have been doing pretty well lately, so that can't be too down and desperate. Did you see the article about Microsoft selecting Opera as the first default browser on their phones.

http://betanews.com/2014/06/24/microsoft-selects-opera-as-default-browser-for-its-android-phones/

I think Opera will do what it will do on desktop based on what it perceives to be a good product I have respect for their creativeness. And that may involve adding more configurability as time passes. I mean, giving the user some choices seems like common sense. However, you know, with the mobile market (andoid, apple, desktop, they have a lot of irons in the fire. Their time frame to get things done on their desktop product, and that of certain users like eldani, might not be the same thing. Now, I would think the highest priority for something very soon has to be importing bookmarks from third party browsers. I mean, that's a first step, before anything else significant. I believe you once said also it ought to be their highest priority. I'd be worried if we don't see that by maybe Opera 24, or even 23 (would be even nicer). Maybe the Opera Next people have heard something. What's hard to gauge is whether they're having problems with the importing feature. Another urgent feature, I would think is making the icon bar readable for Windows 8.1 people. (Although Firefox has a similar problem with thier icon bar for Windows 7 people: I can barely see mine, it's so tiny). These priorities -- a bookmark importer, and propsective users being able to see the icons -- have to be a far greater priority than that customization stuff.

I don't feel like I'm sitting waiting for something, because I do like the browser right now.

treego

treego

I think Opera 23 Next right now is very fast/snappy and nicely extensible. It doesn't seem as clunky as Google Chrome or Firefox or Palemoon, and it has lots of things out of the box that are quite addictive like mouse gestures, Discover, Stash, and Speed Dial/Folders. I really like the Turbo mode which other browsers don't have, also.

I think Opera before Opera 15 was simply brilliant with its swiss army knife integration of so many different things. Unfortunately, there was just too many sites that did not play that well with it. Additionally, with webmail (GMail, YahooMail, OutlookMail), web-based chat programs like Mibbit and KiwiIRC, Facebook, Twitter, and the myriads of extensions available, it seemed to lose its advantage over other browsers that had thousands of terrific extensions and better site compatibility for rendering purposes.

Palemoon 24.6.2, by the way, is better than Firefox 30.

A Former User

I have tried many times in a virtual pc the new version compared to my now 12.17 version. Still have not gotten comfortable with it.

First the mail, I have used Opera for my main 2-3 accounts and other programs for the rest. Mainly because it was integrated and simple and easy to find messages etc. no fuzz.

So tried the standalone app, imported all mail and accounts from 12.17 and set it to start in the tray. That was fine, other than having two different email clients running. As a standalone app im afraid opera looses out and I will have to combine all accounts in one.

I'm now testing Opera next, and the closest I have come is with Chrookmarks, xmarks and add bookmark. Just wish there was a way to have bookmarks in a sidepanel.

I'm guessing its just a matter of time before I have to make the switch.

blackbird71

blackbird71

... Now, I would think the highest priority for something very soon has to be importing bookmarks from third party browsers. I mean, that's a first step, before anything else significant. I believe you once said also it ought to be their highest priority. I'd be worried if we don't see that by maybe Opera 24, or even 23 (would be even nicer). Maybe the Opera Next people have heard something. What's hard to gauge is whether they're having problems with the importing feature. Another urgent feature, I would think is making the icon bar readable for Windows 8.1 people. (Although Firefox has a similar problem with thier icon bar for Windows 7 people: I can barely see mine, it's so tiny). ...

And I agree, it should. But it should have been critical at the outset, as well. Creating a new browser based on a strategy of attracting users from other browsers naturally implies those users need a simple way to import their site-links into Opera. That was one of the earliest, and now continuing, negative comments from users. It is failures just like that to respond in a timely way with a patch for, or even to include at the outset, such an important user element that fuels some of the user reluctance to believe that Opera isn't simply wandering down a path of their own, oblivious to voiced user concerns.

OT: Regarding the FF icon bar, perhaps I'm not looking at the same bar you're referring to or understanding what you mean, but mine appears just fine to me... on this 23" monitorm with a full-screen display, the icons on the menu bar are 0.2" high each. Likewise for the navigation bar, though I do use Classic Theme Restorer extension to make them that small on that toolbar (I prefer small icons myself, so maybe that's the reason I'm not understanding what you mean).

lem729

lem729

And I agree, it should. But it should have been critical at the outset, as well. Creating a new browser based on a strategy of attracting users from other browsers naturally implies those users need a simple way to import their site-links into Opera. That was one of the earliest, and now continuing, negative comments from users. It is failures just like that to respond in a timely way with a patch for, or even to include at the outset, such an important user element that fuels some of the user reluctance to believe that Opera isn't simply wandering down a path of their own, oblivious to voiced user concerns.

They're not losing money. And the new desktop has some wonderful features. I think they know what they're doing, but their time frame is theirs. Not yours, nor the old Presto users, desperate for the old features. They have to deal with mobile browsers also -- of different design. Presumably -- unless they've hired more -- they have to have divided staff resources. I'm certain they're committed to mobile, and I have to think it's good strategy to have a strong desktop browser, because it sells Opera mobile, and vice versa.

OT: Regarding the FF icon bar, perhaps I'm not looking at the same bar you're referring to or understanding what you mean, but mine appears just fine to me... on this 23" monitorm with a full-screen display, the icons on the menu bar are 0.2" high each. Likewise for the navigation bar, though I do use Classic Theme Restorer extension to make them that small on that toolbar (I prefer small icons myself, so maybe that's the reason I'm not understanding what you mean).

They're for me in Windows 7, maybe 2/3 the size of the Opera icons on the Opera 22 icon bar. I've had a hard time figuring out what they relate to and sometimes you have co click on them. I have, I, think, a 21 inch display, that is hd, or something like that. I don't know if Classic Theme Restorer would do anything for the icon bar. Also, I looked at it -- I believe -- it seemed complicated.

Haha, I think -- as I ponder this -- it's the dark theme with dark icons (Sunset Over Water). I changed to the Firefox Default theme with the light blue background and even though the icons are smaller, that's better. It makes a difference. It's amazing how slow I was to pick up on this. Thanks for saying the icons looked okay for you.

myopera23

myopera23

I found Opera 15/16 to be completely unusable. So I reverted to 12.x, and am currently using 12.7, which still has compatibility issues with some of my fave websites(financial ones in particular). So I was using Opera and FF for different websites.

I am currently evaluating 22, and so far I am loving it. A massive increase in usability and compatibility.

alvarezbjm

alvarezbjm

I HATE THE NEW (BAD!) OPERA. YES, I AM HOSTILE. They threw away the opera product I used the most and packaged a chromium clone in the same bag. You can safely assume I am NOT adapting well to the new opera, I could use Google Chrome as well, no big difference

Has anybody cared for building a list of missing features? Because every time I come to forums I feel like to compiling one, only there is really no point for me to use the bad opera long enough as to GROK the depth of the hole, so the list would be rather incomplete.

And, on the bottom line: the bad opera, IN MY EXPERIENCE, not yours, has many site compatibility issues, just as the original one had.

Missing features:

opera:cache (compressed and encrypted now, REALLY????)
opera:config
built in content blocking
site preferences
The way now pages AND forms are saved in recent history (if you accidentally leave the page, the post draft is not lost most of times)

It would have been cheaper for opera inc to a link redirect in opera download to google chrome download, and then tell users to develop plugins to google chrome.

I think I am not the only one leaving when opera 12 becomes non functional

lem729

lem729

It's possible, @alvarezbjm, to be so obsessed about features, one misses the forest for the trees. I am happy though they you still enjoy your Opera browser -- vers. 12. As for the new "faster," Opera, the one -- say what you will -- but far better able to access websites, to support html 5 video, and with other advanced features, like the superb new Speed Dial (with folders). But this is a browser designed to be made whole, via extension. So you need to look for some of what you want in the Opera add-on store, or the Chrome extension store (you can use a Chrome extension, as long as you have an Opera extension, like "Download Chrome Extension," or "Extension Source Viewer." Hmmm, for your content blocker, AdBlock Plus is terrific, https://addons.opera.com/en/extensions/details/opera-adblock/?display=ar and there are other good choices too. I have no problem blocking content in Opera. I even add the Disconnect extension https://addons.opera.com/en/extensions/details/disconnect/?display=en (which supplements the content blocking of Ad Block, Plus. The result is outstanding. And then there's extension, Disconnect Search, https://addons.opera.com/en/extensions/details/disconnect-search/?display=en (which conceals your search, protecting your privacy) and https everywhere (which encrypts the web adding to your security), https://addons.opera.com/en/extensions/details/https-everywhere/?display=en. These kind of extensions (because there are others I could cite here too) are not available with Opera 12.

On your concern about forms, you might try this extension, "Local Pass Store," which attempts to recapture the old Opera wand feature that people liked.
https://addons.opera.com/en/extensions/details/local-pass-store/?display=en
You could also get something like LastPast, https://addons.opera.com/en/extensions/details/lastpass/?display=en
or Roboform Light. https://addons.opera.com/en/extensions/details/roboform-lite/?display=en

Now Opera 20 IS different from Chrome. See again, because perhaps you missed, in not fully reading this thread, lol, Rafaelluik's informative post -- https://forums.opera.com/topic/3465/just-wondering-why-you-use-the-current-opera-over-other-browsers/10 Having the same browser engine, doesn't make it the same thing. It's like having to do something that follows a convention -- let's say in music. Everyone in the 18th century in large part adhered to conventions about how to compose music, but there was still Mozart. There's plenty of room for individual excellence, even if something is shared (be it a composing convention, or with regard to browsing, something as important as an engine). A lot can be done with the same engine -- that is different. Take a look at Coast for Ipad, or Opera Mini (for Ipad). They stand out (are distinctive, creative) from other browsers on the Ipad, even though they share the same engine. No one who looks at them would be unable to see how different they are from the other browsers for the Ipad.

A Former User

okay,okay,okay. I have now decided to go cold turkey and move from 12.17 to latest opera, for a month.
I have noticed certain loading problems on sites, upgrade browser notification, drag files to web site etc.

moved email accounts to other program
extensions as followed;
xmarks for bookmarks, ouch what a mess.
neater bookmarks and chrookmarks.
chromehistory.
ez zoom.
xtranslate.
lastpass.
add bookmark.

here goes.

lem729

lem729

@bobman

Best wishes. Don't hesitate to post if you have any problems, are looking for ideas, etc.

A Former User

that was fast..any extension that let me search bookmarks?
chrookmarks is not working, same with minimal bookmarks

neater bookmarks works slowly, but I think the popup windows is too small and missing the tree structure\main folder.

lem729

lem729

Well, I use Chrookmarks, and sometimes Neater Bookmarks, so I checked them both, and the search was fine for me. I click on the icon for whichever extension I'm testing, and then a vertical folder display comes up (showing your bookmarks). On top of the folder display, there was a search bar. I could search for a bookmark folder name, or subfolder name and they both found it easily. Neater Bookmarks was faster for me. Now I've always felt Neater Bookmarks is faster, but there's one kink it has, that the developer has told me he will try to fix, but hasn't yet (at least last I checked). If you click on a folder that has three bookmarked items, and you want to open all three in different tabs, you right click on the first one, and choose to open it in a new tab, but Neater Bookmarks then closes. You have to open it again to find the second item. Chrookmarks stays open, so it's easier to put the three items in separate tabs. Now it you have some imported bookmarks, that you're trying to cut and paste to your main bookmarks, Neater Bookmarks lets you do this, while Chrookmarks doesn't do well with that task. Can't seem with it to right click on the Imported bookmark and cut it, so I can paste it.

So I keep them both. I have for the moment, Chrookmarks deactivated, but if I need to work on cutting and pasting my imported bookmarks, I activate it. If the one feature nit I referenced at the beginning of this post is fixed, I'd go back to Neater Bookmarks as my main Bookmarks Manager extension, because it's faster than Chrookmarks.

There are certainly other Bookmark Manager Extensions. I just haven't tried them, as either of these two generally are enough for me.

Deleted User

Deleted User

I recently switched back to opera. I used chrome and firefox for a while but got annoyed with both of them. I still love some of opera's features, that the new opera still has (speed dial mainly, yes I tried many speed dial addons for firefox and chrome, and they all sucked :p )

I can understand why users of opera 12 are frustrated, but I think a lot of people forget that the new opera is basically a total re-write, and has only been in development for a year or so. Its completely unrealistic to think that it would already have as many features as opera 12, which is a very old browser that gained many features over many, many years of development. The new opera is coming along pretty well, people need to have realistic expectations. Currently the new opera is still a bit barebones, but it does already have features to differentiate it from other browsers (speed dial, stash, discover, tab preview, opera turbo), and I'm sure there will be more features to come (afaik they are currently working on improving bookmarks and implementing sync).

Calling it a 'chrome clone' is disingenuous. It uses chromium under the hood, but a clone of google chrome it is not.

Deleted User

Deleted User

@alvarezbjm

"And, on the bottom line: the bad opera, IN MY EXPERIENCE, not yours, has many site compatibility issues, just as the original one had."

The new opera literally uses the same rendering engine as chrome. 99.99% of the time it works with any site chrome does. I've yet to run into nay compatibility issues here.

lem729

lem729

The engine is a similarity between Chrome and Opera, but two users with the same engine can do highly different things. And one can be innovative and creative, the other less so, or can evolve in different ways, which also have merit. Still, Opera with it's Speed Dial with folders -- you're right there, viperafk -- (why. that's the feature, for which I can forgive a helluva lot, it's so good), and the other innovations -- Discover, Stash, Turbo Mode, is doing a great job creating a unique and enjoyable browser. I just tried the new Opera mini for Ipad yesterday and have continued playing with it today -- it also gives you a Speed Dial with folders, a Discover and a Turbo mode, and more. Though using a different engine, webkit, it's not unlike the desktop Opera, underscoring that it's not the engine that gives a browser the distinctive look. Opera creates a similar look (with similar features) in the Ipad and desktop Opera, with two different engines.

A Former User

well, I found popup my bookmark extension, that seems to be the best I have tried so far. Also feedly notifier and google calendar extension seems to be fine.

With opera 12 I often had to reload pages to make them display correctly, not encountered that so far. Also the wand feature would not work on login on some sites, lastpass seems to work so far.