Option to edit DEFAULT SEARCH ENGINES
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stealth789 last edited by admin
@stealth789
You mentioned in that other thread that you never save your password on a browser.
https://forums.opera.com/topic/3441/search-engine-default/29
I do, and I'm sure many others do. There are just too many passwords at too many sites one needs to access to have to re-enter them all the time. But maybe that is is a reason why you are less concerned about a search engine hijacking. If your search engine is hijacked, there are no passwords of yours in the browser that are insecure/compromised. Fine, so you can be relaxed about using a less secure/higher risk search engine.
I feel strongly about the issue (that I want Opera to not offer less safe search engines) because if my search engine is hijacked my data, including passwords, is compromised -- and a lot of things adverse to me can come into play from that.My answer's here https://forums.opera.com/post/42565 . Also more about your "safe" engines I mentioned just here above https://forums.opera.com/post/42511 . From 10 only 1 act at least in secure connection. But is suspicious from tracking uses, so basically their privacy!
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stealth789 last edited by
But if I make extension that allows to use any there defined engine, would it be acceptable by Opera? Let's say some Disconnect Search act like extension with ability to use custom engine? Or when this extension will have let's say 100 fixed engines, but you can set any as default. Will Opera allow it? Again using also address bar to input search term?
You say: "But if I make extension that allows to use any there defined engine, would it be acceptable by Opera?"
I have no idea as to the answer to your question. You'd have to meet the Opera review criteria, which are fairly extensive. http://dev.opera.com/extensions/tut_publishing_guidelines.html
Every case is individual, and must meet the extensive Opera review criteria for approval of an extension. You cannot generalize from Opera's approval of the Disconnect Search extension. The Disconnect Search extension was approved by Opera (but the whole Disconnect enterprise is focused on safety (designed to prevent Internet Service Providers and thousands of websites from seeing your searches and tracking you), so the Opera review (of the code of that extension) and the determination that it was okay and safe for Opera users, is no precedent for how Opera would react to a different extension that permitted a search (using a search engine that is not one of the five Opera Default engines) from the Opera Address Bar. It would no doubt be coded differently, reviewed on its own terms, based on the Opera review criteria. The whole Disconnect enterprise by a ostensibly reputable enterprise has has a lot of positive reviews, and surely was determined by Opera to add needed and valuable functionality (providing a search where that search is anonymous).Sure I understand that it's individual. But I don't find there anything mentioning my scenario. Still Opera can remove any contents on their pages if they want. Or there's part about option to edit.
To be accurate, Opera has 10 engines (now). But sure 5 are active based on location. When I don't count location variants there are: allegro, amazon, baidu, bing, google, rambler, seznam, wiki, yahoo, yandex. From this 10: 1 use secure connection, 2 don't use HTTPS (even it's supported by server), and 7 don't use HTTPS, because they just don't support it. So basically only 1 is secure, without uncovering my privacy!Just to be accurate one mistake in numbers. So as I tried now there's one more engine that can use secure connection, but is not set correctly:
- 1 engine use secure connection HTTPS (SSL secure connection): google
- 3 engines are set wrong by Opera, as they accept secure conection (on server side), but are not set to use it: bing, wiki, yahoo
- 6 engines doesn't support secure connection: allegro, amazon, baidu, rambler, seznam, yandex
And when we're talking about positive reviews, also read about StartPage/Ixquick or DuckDuckGo. Or other secure and safe search engines. Not to force you, but to know, there are other alternatives. And power users knows it, and want to be secure.
http://techcrunch.com/2013/04/17/disconnect-2-brings-more-privacy-to-your-browser-lets-you-block-2k-sites-from-tracking-your-activity-online/
http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2011/02/27/wall-street-journal-privacy-series-inspires-one-start-up/
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/03/technology/personaltech/sweeping-away-a-search-history.html?_r=0
Opera's review of the codes is designed to determine among other things, where there are any obvious bugs. If Opera deems the extension code malicious (one that could permit a search engine hijacking), one could easily guess they would not approve it, or at least I would hope
I mean a third party search bar (created by an extension) which can be easily taken over and hijacked would seem like an obvious "bug." Also, all extensions are reviewed to ensure that the extension must not collect private information without authorization from the user. It must not send private data to an external store.Sure I understand about privacy. But there are extensions that allow you to search from specific popup windows. But still if it's possible to override default engine like Disconnect Search extension, then it's just possible.
On the insurance of safety through the native browser, and its review of extensions, at this point, it seems to me that it's Opera's call. I see no reason to second guess Opera. The safety decision is theirs.
Sure if Oprea won't approve it, there's no way. At least not to provide extension on Opera site. Still there are Options to use different site. But it sure will look unsafe in first place. So hope people don't use any of this kind of extensions.
I cannot urge them to "safely" add additional default search engines, because that presumes that it can be safely done in a cost effective manner. That's putting the cart before the horse. Rather, I would urge that if they can safely and cost-effectively add additional search engines, then they should do it.
Sure. I'm not asking anybody to do it, just because. I'm trying to argument, and find a way. And anybody can read arguments, and made decision on their own. I don't think that argue more is worse for decision.
As for now I use 5 browsers. For example IE for specific portal applications, and also Chromium, Firefox, TorBrowser and sure Opera as main browser. In any other of them I have custom engine. So basically when I switch to another one, I'm expecting it to work. Now when I'm in Opera I have to press key. And as you know people forget. So time to time it's hard when you again see results you won't see. It's disturbing, and also from my personal point un-secure (it's just personal preference). -
lem729 last edited by
alaxanderzeus,
You're repeating verbatem the arguments already made by stealth789 and me.
We all agree that if they can safely and cost effectively add additonal search engines, we recommend they do it. Everyone agrees it shouldn't be done if Opera concludes it's not safe.
There is nowhere else for this thread to go. It's really time to close it.
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stealth789 last edited by
alaxanderzeus,
You're repeating verbatem the arguments already made by stealth789 and me.
We all agree that if they can safely and cost effectively add additonal search engines, we recommend they do it. Everyone agrees it shouldn't be done if Opera concludes it's not safe.I just don't agree that they can't do it safely and cost effectively.
As you stated before you're not specialist on this specific topic or developer. So basically no one responsible didn't react the way why exactly this cannot happen. So then I can argue to it, why it should be possible. As I'm used from any other forums that I can argue about my suggestion also with people really responsible for possible application of suggestion. But maybe my misunderstanding.
There is nowhere else for this thread to go. It's really time to close it.
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linuxmint7 last edited by
alaxanderzeus,
You're repeating verbatem the arguments already made by stealth789 and me.Of course he was, because he was (past tenths) a spammer.
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blackbird71 last edited byalaxanderzeus,
You're repeating verbatem the arguments already made by stealth789 and me.
We all agree that if they can safely and cost effectively add additonal search engines, we recommend they do it. Everyone agrees it shouldn't be done if Opera concludes it's not safe.
There is nowhere else for this thread to go. It's really time to close it.Sigh...!
@lem729 -- OT: things I really wish this forum possessed: a means of indicating (in the original place) that a poster's message was deleted by a mod. I read forums in linear fashion... so when I stumbled on your reference to alaxanderzeus's post, I went back looking for it, over and over again (thinking it really must be there somewhere). Eventually I gave up and continued reading beyond your post, only to discover that he was a spammer and his posts were made to evaporate... quite understandably, of course. But it does leave a messy trail behind in references of subsequent posts, and readers can too easily fall off that cliff as they follow along. Oh well... there are worse things in life, I guess.
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lem729 last edited by
You are right, blackbird71. I noticed it too
Like what were we all commenting on (once the spammer's post was deleted). If I had been quick enough, I would have ignored the post, so there would be no trail when the moderator deleted the post. I'll try to remember that in the future.Yes, ideally if the Moderator deletes a post, maybe the name of the spammer should remain with the message by the Moderator about "Post deleted because it . . . " (whatever). Then if people saw the comments, they would understand it. Sometimes, I've seen the Moderator's do that.
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blackbird71 last edited by
@lem729, it's only a guess, but the mods may have more than one way to attack spamming, and depending on what technique they use, the results/effects may vary. If they go after an individual post, perhaps they can comment in place of it... but if they extinguish the hacker's account in certain ways, perhaps all his posts simply evaporate... I'm really not sure. In any case, the mods have a heavy enough load, so I certainly wouldn't want to add to it by asking for more manual intervention in such situations. I just wish the forum machinery itself did some things a little differently, this being one of them...
But, as I noted earlier, in the grand scheme of things, there are certainly worse things. Frankly, I'm glad (and very appreciative) that the mods are jumping on spam as fast as they do... it's a major, major improvement over the early days of this forum.
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A Former User last edited by admin
Does it is necessary to discuss the same thing in two topics?
Very confusing, specially when it comes to chose where I'd post.
I hope all interested can see my comment here and that we are able to learn more together about the two issues (lack of HTTPS in some built-in engines and the setting of custom search engine as default):
https://forums.opera.com/post/42867 -
lem729 last edited by admin
For me, the issue was Opera's inability to add additional search engines because of the fear of a malicious takeover/hijacking of the search engine. And while there was agreement as to that by everyone, it would seem, except the original poster, there was an unfair, offensive characterization by rafaelluik of some of the posters in that other thread (including myself), unfortunately cross-referenced in the post above. In repeating -- through the cross-reference -- something, in my view, very much inappropriate, double damage was done. Now here was my response.
https://forums.opera.com/topic/3441/search-engine-default/78
Notwithstanding the above, every moderator has a difficult job, and I repect those who take on such arduous, sometimes thankless responsibilities. It's not always possible, like Solomon, to offer to divide the baby in two. This was a case in particular where the offer to divide really doesn't work.
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A Former User last edited by
I'm sorry about any confusion... I'll try to clear up the things as we continue replying in that thread. I didn't mean to hurt anybody (and I believe you misunderstood what I wrote, or maybe I wrote very badly so it was impossible for something else to come out from this? IDK).
I'd like to remember you that although I'm a mod, I'm also a member. When I post, I post also as a member and I can let my opinions flow like everybody else. As a mod, I didn't condemn any of your attitudes nor advised/warned you, nor pointed to the forum rules nor anything. (I hope this can be understood and I don't feel remorse later. huh lol)
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lem729 last edited by
Yes, no worry there, @rafaelluik
How terrible it would be if you couldn't wear your member hat and throw yourself into the fray now and then. And yes, sometimes when you do comment, it's hard for others not to see the comment coming from you in that moderator role. Still we badly need good moderators, so you are helping to perform an essential function. So please no after-the-fact remorse. If you always agreed with me, maybe -- haha-- I'd find you boring,
Now there was no intent to gang up on anyone, though passions can be heated when posts go back and forth almost, seemingly every minute. I know my own limitations on this issue, and that I don't have the technical knowledge to second guess Opera. That's why I have kept saying in this thread that I have to "defer" to Opera. And though we have some highly astute people, with much programming and computer knowledge in the forum, there's still an issue of whether they know enough about the problem Opera was dealing with, to say Opera was wrong in its determination. I highly doubt it. Therefore, I struggle trying to see what use there is in this thread, other than a vehicle to vent.I guess we could contribute something in this thread (even make recommendations to Opera that might help it) if we knew (what, alas, I strongly suspect we do not, nor likely ever will):
(1) what data Opera had about the hijacking of its browser engines that led to the limitation in default engines offered, including how exactly the hijackings took place. In that regard, was there a uniform method, or might there be a number of different ways the hijackings occurred?
(2) how default engines (other than the ones approved by Opera) contributed to it, that is, made the hijackings easier.
(3) does Opera view its default engines as inherently safer than others would be if they made them available, and if so, why?
(4) or is that Opera needed to offer some default search engines to compete with other browsers ( maybe even made income out of the default search engines they offered), and that while all engines can equally (and as easily) be hijacked, that the risks of hijacking become greater if you offer more (hence a limitation on the number Opera chose to offer).
(5) or is it that for some reason it would help if we knew, typing the code would make any search safer, but Opera did need to offer some default search engines (to compete with other browsers) but wants to limit the risk of hijackings, by limiting the number of default engines offered.
(6) why typing of the one or two letter code, is in Opera's view safer.
(7) why via extension Opera lets Disconnect Search get around the limitation for DuckDuckGo, and any others in the Disconnect Search engine not in the Opera approved default list. (Surely Opera concluded this extension provides needed functionality). Maybe there's a liability concern. If Opera provides the additional engine, they are more responsible for safety than if a third-party provides it, where their review is on its face lesser.
In sum, unless we could provide Opera with this questionaire ;))) and get a full and complete response, I don't see how we can second-guess Opera and say they made the wrong decision. All we can do is to ask Opera to provide additional default search engines if: (a) Opera deems them as safe as those already provided, (b) concludes that typing the additional code in no way adds to the safety).
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notwithoutmymonkey last edited by
Despite Opera's excuses, it's clear that this decision has been taken for commercial reasons. The reason itself simply doesn't pass the sniff test of plausibility.
I don't want anything to do with Google. I object to the company, its practices and the insidious power that it is amassing. I used to remove it from my search options. I'm no longer able to do that. I have used duckduckgo, ixquick and qwant interchangeably for some time now.
I object to being corralled into using search engines that Opera has commercial agreements with and for this reason after many years of use, I will be migrating to Firefox where I can at least alter the default search engine.
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lem729 last edited by
Now @notwithoutmymonkey, you say it is ckear the Opera decision to limit default search engines, "was taken for commercial reasons.". How so, clear? On what evidence do you base that conclusion? Am I missing something here? Opera asserted security reasons -- the hijacking of search engines by malware and adware, taking users to dangerous sites. Aren't you concerned about that? Perhaps you would like to have your credit cards and identity stolen. As for gross commercial actions (not that there's anything wrong with business ;)) check this article out, "Firefox hits the Jackpot with almost billion dollar google deal."
Firefox, it seems, takes more money from Google than any other browser. $1,000,000,000. Wow. Perhaps, by a longshot. So that's who you are about to jump in bed with. Smile. If you're that concerned about commercial reasons, what then are you doing? Now, if you want to use another default search engine, not provided by Opera, for what it says are security reasons, and are unhappy with the minimally obtrusive one or two letter code workaround or extensions, which make the code workaround unnecessary (like Disconnect Search) and expand functionality, and if you are not concerned about the safety issue, then fine, switching, of course, is your prerogative,
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stealth789 last edited by admin
For me, the issue was Opera's inability to add additional search engines because of the fear of a malicious takeover/hijacking of the search engine. And while there was agreement as to that by everyone, it would seem, except the original poster, there was an unfair, offensive characterization by rafaelluik of some of the posters in that other thread (including myself), unfortunately cross-referenced in the post above. In repeating -- through the cross-reference -- something, in my view, very much inappropriate, double damage was done. Now here was my response.
https://forums.opera.com/topic/3441/search-engine-default/78
Notwithstanding the above, every moderator has a difficult job, and I repect those who take on such arduous, sometimes thankless responsibilities. It's not always possible, like Solomon, to offer to divide the baby in two. This was a case in particular where the offer to divide really doesn't work.Just one point of view. From developer's point of view. Inability is mostly excuse here. I can understand other reasons, but not, that they're not able to make it. It's just not correct. It's about finding a way, not ignoring it.
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stealth789 last edited by
In sum, unless we could provide Opera with this questionaire ;))) and get a full and complete response, I don't see how we can second-guess Opera and say they made the wrong decision. All we can do is to ask Opera to provide additional default search engines if: (a) Opera deems them as safe as those already provided, (b) concludes that typing the additional code in no way adds to the safety).
:). But I don't agree that we can't second guess unless they give answers. We can. And even more just because they don't give these answers.
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lem729 last edited by
We know search engines have been hijacked in the past. And that if they are, the risk of damage to users can be quite severe. Credit card and identity theft are no laughing matter. So for me, there's no upside to disbelieving Opera when they say that the hijacking of search engines is a reason why they limited the number of default engines. I don't want to push them to do something that could harm users, including myself.
Now personally, I'm delighted if Opera provides more default search engines. My only concern is that they do not do so under pressure from users, even though they believe the risk of default search engine hijackings becomes greater. Rather I hope they are able to conclude, based upon further analysis, that there is no increase in user risk, and that they can, therefore, comfortably provide more default search engines. Let's keep our fingers crossed and hope for the best. If Opera, however, continues to conclude that providing more default search engines would increase user risk, the "best" from my perspective would be for Opera not to provide the increased default engines.
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stealth789 last edited by
We know search engines have been hijacked in the past. And that if they are, the risk of damage to users can be quite severe. Credit card and identity theft are no laughing matter. So for me, there's no upside to disbelieving Opera when they say that the hijacking of search engines is a reason why they limited the number of default engines. I don't want to push them to do something that could harm users, including myself.
Now personally, I'm delighted if Opera provides more default search engines. My only concern is that they do not do so under pressure from users, even though they believe the risk of default search engine hijackings becomes greater. Rather I hope they are able to conclude, based upon further analysis, that there is no increase in user risk, and that they can, therefore, comfortably provide more default search engines. Let's keep our fingers crossed and hope for the best. If Opera, however, continues to conclude that providing more default search engines would increase user risk, the "best" from my perspective would be for Opera not to provide the increased default engines.If you refer laughing to my smile, it was meant for your questionaire ;). I never laugh when security is an issue.
And I got it, that are opinions here on some things are different. It's OK. I also don't want it to harm anyone. But from my technical point of view, risk is the same as allowing you to save your password. So it's simple. They can use same mechanism like for saving passwords in file Login Data. It's only SQLite database file with encrypted data. It's not like reinventing the wheel you know. And here I'm ready to argue to anyone with technical background. No problem.
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lem729 last edited by
You smiled at my questionnaire. Good grief! But were you able to answer anything in it? Some of those are reasonable questions (from a technical and a common-sense background), starting with " what data Opera had about the hijacking of its browser engines that led to the limitation in default engines offered, including how exactly the hijackings took place." I mean this is basic, necessary information to decide whether Opera's actions were reasonable. All of that questionaire (one should never hide behind a forced smile) raises important issues without the answers to which you're basically shooting in the dark, in suggesting that Opera's actions have been inappropriate. Who knows what your might hit
Having a technical background does not excuse the necessity to answer very essential questions, without which answers one can become like a person shooting a blunderbuss -- the pellets fly in every direction.Now I'm not saying any of us are in a position where we could easily know the answers to those seven questions that I poseed. The information Opera had, upon which it made its decision on default engines, is not readily available to any of us in the forum. And huffing and puffing and talking about technical expertise in no way changes that essential problem with this thread. It is a reason why this thread is an exercise in futility.
