Where is the focus Opera??

  • When you read articles like this:
    http://www.ghacks.net/2013/11/04/opera-19-developer-update-enable-operas-power-user-mode/
    it really makes you wonder where Opera puts its focus!

    WOW! They have developed a task manager which is nice in a way but shouldn't they have put more focus on lets say...
    a proper bookmark manager?

    According to this post:
    http://my.opera.com/community/forums/topic.dml?id=1793312&t=1386291712&page=1#comment14997832
    "Opera's user survey results indicated that 90% (sic) of users never added a single bookmark!"

    Now the question rises: Are people REALLY more interested in a task manager rather than a proper bookmark manager? I don't think so!
    With a "proper bookmark manager" I mean a manager that can handle 1000+ bookmarks, import/export to and from other browsers.
    That has a search feature and can handle folders etc.

    For me Opera Presto cannot fulfill my needs anymore (I have used it since version 3.5 1998) because too many compatibility problems especially with social media sites like FB, Google+, Thumblr and many others.

    After so many versions with the Opera webkit out there: 15, 16, 17, 18 and almost 19 now and still there is no way to import AND manage a default "bookmarks.html" file with 1000+ bookmarks!

    I guess the features in dev version 19 really shows where Opera puts its focus. It's rather on cool features as task manager but not on a crucial and important features like a proper bookmark manager.

    No offense Opera but I think your survey about 90% never added a single bookmark is just totally wrong.
    For instance many Opera users used IE or FF as they primary browser where they kept they bookmarks and used Opera only as an optional browser.

    And come on! How long should it take to code a bookmark manager for Opera? Really.
    A high school student with developer skills can do it in lets say 2-3 days. But why do it from scratch when you can just take Google Chrome open source.

    Well Opera, you behavior it's surely very weird and disappointing!

  • Originally posted by Ervin74:

    No offense Opera but I think your survey about 90% never added a single bookmark is just totally wrong.

    Who cares about the facts when they have opinions?

    Ctrl Z of Ctrl D (i.e. Undo of Add Bookmark)

    Since 2007 we've been asking randomly-selected people if we could anonymously collect information from their Opera install (via opera:config#UserPrefs|EnableUsageStatistics) so we could see the features they use. Some of these users have volunteered to give us this data since 2007.

    Based on the group of 100,000+ users, we saw that more than 90% of our users never actually added a single bookmark to the ones shipped with Opera. What most people actually do is:

    - keep their favorite sites open all the time
    - use above together with sessions
    - use Speed Dial

    Enable Usage Statistics is enabled by default, and the sample is quite large enough to be statistically significant. Just because you and I collect bookmarks, and organise them meticulously, I am sure that most who use a browser don't spend all day online, and even when they are online they probably spend more time watching videos or chatting on Facebook than they do reading and responding in forums like this, or doing academic research.

    Even among regular My Opera forum visitors, according to my poll, which is not statistically significant, most users have fewer than 1,000 bookmarks, and 42% fewer than 500. Managing 500 bookmarks is easily doable on the Bookmarks Bar in Opera 18 or 19.

  • Originally posted by Pesala:

    Who cares about the facts when they have opinions?

    well, one could also argue that more powerful users actually care about not being tracked so they might not show up in the numbers even though they use lots of functionality. I for one always disable "can we track your usage?" options.

  • Originally posted by serious:

    Originally posted by Pesala:

    Who cares about the facts when they have opinions?

    well, one could also argue that more powerful users actually care about not being tracked so they might not show up in the numbers even though they use lots of functionality. I for one always disable "can we track your usage?" options.

    Sure you could argue anything and anyway you like. The truth is, no one can determine anything beyond what the actual statistics show other than with his/her opinion. Opera has chosen to interpret the statistics at raw value and that's all that matters. Besides, so-called "more powerful users" may no longer be Opera's target group. Who can say? In my own group of family and friends all (not some... all) of them have fewer than 100 bookmarks and in some cases they have none. With search being what it is today, there's really no need for copious numbers of bookmarks anymore... particularly numbering in the 1000's. That number is utterly ridiculous and I would guess that these "more powerful users" haven't a clue as to whether these bookmarks are current and even good anymore. Do you bookmark every site you ever surf to or what? :whistle:

  • Originally posted by leushino:

    With search being what it is today, there's really no need for copious numbers of bookmarks anymore... particularly numbering in the 1000's. That number is utterly ridiculous and I would guess that these "more powerful users" haven't a clue as to whether these bookmarks are current and even good anymore. Do you bookmark every site you ever surf to or what? :whistle:

    Is Opera paying you to be here? That's a ridiculous statement and judging from from all the complaints about it on this forum you should already know that. Releasing a browser without this feature is absurd and shows a complete lack of focus from Opera on migrating users from Presto to ChrOpera. Opera could have fixed this 4 versions ago.

  • Originally posted by leushino:

    Originally posted by serious:

    Originally posted by Pesala:

    Who cares about the facts when they have opinions?

    well, one could also argue that more powerful users actually care about not being tracked so they might not show up in the numbers even though they use lots of functionality. I for one always disable "can we track your usage?" options.

    ... so-called "more powerful users" may no longer be Opera's target group. Who can say? In my own group of family and friends all (not some... all) of them have fewer than 100 bookmarks and in some cases they have none. With search being what it is today, there's really no need for copious numbers of bookmarks anymore... particularly numbering in the 1000's. That number is utterly ridiculous and I would guess that these "more powerful users" haven't a clue as to whether these bookmarks are current and even good anymore. Do you bookmark every site you ever surf to or what? :whistle:

    In the course of my daily affairs, I currently 'browse' daily to over 65 US Weather Bureau radar web pages alone (counting mode and locale variations), usually - but not always - the same sites at a point in each day. They all have identical icons (so those I suppress), mile-long URLs (which are useless to distinguish from a listing), and most are animated sites. In Old Opera, I've bookmarked each of these, applying an ultra-short nickname (such as R-ni, il, g, g*, u, u*, etc) and then array them along Old Opera's bookmark bar, wherein bar-position/grouping along the bar is almost as important as nickname. With a wide screen display, I can array around 100 such bookmarks on the bar for ready retrieval at various times during the day. Otherwise, the browser and computer remain unencumbered by all the potential site animations having to run in the background. At other times during the day, I can readily swap out the radar bookmark bar with another by simply calling up a different-named toolbar file (along with its differently-populated bookmarks bar) from within Opera, and immediately gain access to around 25 satellite animations and 50 barometric condition maps on another bookmarks bar. And so on for 4 other bookmarks bars. Beyond that, there are over 800 other stored, reference bookmarks that I at times move on and off the bookmarks bars, depending on circumstances over the longer term. Try this with any Opera version since 12.16, and you will fail - profoundly.

    I seriously believe that today, most folks at Opera simply do not have any grasp of how incredible and functional a tool they had developed in Opera over the years, based largely on its flexibility and stunning configurability. It is the loss of this flexibility and configurability in Blink Opera to date that is little short of horrifying to those of us who, like me, have come to heavily rely on such unique elements in Opera. Progress toward any degree of similar configurability in New Opera has thus far been glacial at best, and official Opera statements to date have been very discouraging (this and that won't ever be returning, just use an extension, and so on). There might be a thousand users "out there" who neither employ nor care about Old Opera's amazing usefulness, but that hardly helps those of us who do. Given that there are literally a dozen or more browsers that can satisfy those thousands of users, and only one Opera that has been able to satisfy the rest of us, the negativity of user reaction to the New Opera should at least be understandable - few though we may (or may not) be.

  • Originally posted by Tradeofjane:

    Originally posted by leushino:

    With search being what it is today, there's really no need for copious numbers of bookmarks anymore... particularly numbering in the 1000's. That number is utterly ridiculous and I would guess that these "more powerful users" haven't a clue as to whether these bookmarks are current and even good anymore. Do you bookmark every site you ever surf to or what? :whistle:

    Is Opera paying you to be here? That's a ridiculous statement and judging from from all the complaints about it on this forum you should already know that. Releasing a browser without this feature is absurd and shows a complete lack of focus from Opera on migrating users from Presto to ChrOpera. Opera could have fixed this 4 versions ago.

    That's such a lame, old remark. Get a life, Sonny. I'm here because (now listen CLOSELY)... because I WANT to be here. Can you grasp that simple fact? You don't like the new Opera. Tough. Deal with it OR stick with the old and stop whining OR go elsewhere. It's really easy if you think about it.

  • Originally posted by blackbird71:

    In the course of my daily affairs, I currently 'browse' daily to over 65 US Weather Bureau radar web pages alone (counting mode and locale variations), usually - but not always - the same sites at a point in each day.

    No offense, but that's just strange. You definitely do not represent the average person online. You say to "try this in any browser other than.." but seriously? Why would I want to try that? I see that as a waste of my time and I suspect most would share that opinion.

    I seriously believe that today, most folks at Opera simply do not have any grasp of how incredible and functional a tool they had developed in Opera over the years, based largely on its flexibility and stunning configurability.

    And I suspect that most people today couldn't care less about Opera or what Opera was or what Opera might have been. Opera is NOT on the radar of MOST people... period. Had it remained the wonderful, flexible, configurable browser that it was it doubtless would have continued to lose users other than the minuscule user group it had. Shareholders (and developers apparently) decidedly did not share your vision and thus... Opera Next.

  • Originally posted by leushino:

    With search being what it is today, there's really no need for copious numbers of bookmarks anymore... particularly numbering in the 1000's. That number is utterly ridiculous and I would guess that these "more powerful users" haven't a clue as to whether these bookmarks are current and even good anymore. Do you bookmark every site you ever surf to or what? :whistle:

    There I have to disagree.

    I have about 2600 bookmarks in about 100 categories (folders).

    A large category is restaurants. I look at reviews and over the years I save the sites of restaurant reviews I like. I have about 150 restaurants saved. When we feel up to it, we look and visit.

    How can a search replace that? I'm supposed to search "Restaurants in my geographic region which are reviewed and I like". A search cannot not know what I like. I know some sites not longer exist. Then I simply delete the bookmark.

    Which is why Opera 15 was completely unacceptable. Bookmarks, to me, are as important as the browser back button (if not more so).

  • Originally posted by leushino:

    Originally posted by blackbird71:

    In the course of my daily affairs, I currently 'browse' daily to over 65 US Weather Bureau radar web pages alone (counting mode and locale variations), usually - but not always - the same sites at a point in each day.

    No offense, but that's just strange. You definitely do not represent the average person online. You say to "try this in any browser other than.." but seriously? Why would I want to try that? I see that as a waste of my time and I suspect most would share that opinion
    ...
    And I suspect that most people today couldn't care less about Opera or what Opera was or what Opera might have been. Opera is NOT on the radar of MOST people... period. Had it remained the wonderful, flexible, configurable browser that it was it doubtless would have continued to lose users other than the minuscule user group it had. Shareholders (and developers apparently) decidedly did not share your vision and thus... Opera Next.

    Well... you post here over and over asserting that folks you know don't use many, if any, bookmarks. Then, when somebody goes to the trouble of explaining just one way in which real people (I am one, you know) use numerous bookmarks daily in the course of what they do, you characterize their usage as "strange". If you read my post, you saw that I clearly indicate that I don't expect to be considered as "average". However, many other folks I know DO use numerous bookmarks in one fashion or another, for one reason or another. So personal anecdotes do vary.

    But my real point, perhaps not made clear, is that it's not just the bookmarks - it's the configurability in how they and a lot else could be used together: bookmarks, bookmark bar, nicknames, swappable toolbars, icon suppression, bar positioning, ability to skin the browser to create very small button text, ability to create and display custom function buttons. On and on and on... In Old Opera, all these configurability elements play together to make the browser adaptable to how a person wants to use it in even specialized taskings... and virtually none of which exist in Blink Opera to this date.

    I realize that Opera is now dancing to the siren-song of catering to the masses. But I still harbor hope that they'll be persuaded to recognize that a goal of simply re-fashioning themself into one more mass-appeal browser will never give them the necessary distinctives that will allow them to ever accomplish that. Unless they make the browser seriously user-configurable, what will ever set them apart from all the other browser-wanabees that contain "no user serviceable parts inside"? If the detailed features are exported to extensions, what will ever distinguish them as a browser from the cloud of other simplistic-browsers & extension sets out there? How many kids grow up wanting to play in the big sports leagues, football or soccer or baseball... yet how many demonstrate the native distinctives to bring it about? Just wanting to play doesn't cut it, you have to work from your strengths, and those must be real and meaningful. Alienating part of your user base by removing your long-time distinctives and strengths doesn't cut it for browsers, either.

    Whether or not Opera realizes it, if they seriously wish to grow, they need to do both - appeal to new users and retain the genuine distinctiveness that will retain experienced users. Appealing to new users is one thing Opera has historically never done successfully within the desktop sector... they have not marketed well, if at all. Retaining genuine distinctiveness had been an Opera hallmark for many years - until now. Which leaves them currently making a 5-foot leap over a 20-foot ditch. I sincerely hope they can turn this all around, else the Opera I've known and relied upon for years will necessarily become a lamented footnote in my personal history.

  • Originally posted by BernG:

    There I have to disagree.

    I have about 2600 bookmarks in about 100 categories (folders).

    A large category is restaurants. I look at reviews and over the years I save the sites of restaurant reviews I like. I have about 150 restaurants saved. When we feel up to it, we look and visit.

    How can a search replace that? I'm supposed to search "Restaurants in my geographic region which are reviewed and I like". A search cannot not know what I like. I know some sites not longer exist. Then I simply delete the bookmark.

    Which is why Opera 15 was completely unacceptable. Bookmarks, to me, are as important as the browser back button (if not more so).

    First off, I know my favorite restaurants and I also know that they change. I don't need to be reminded of them by going back to hundreds of bookmarks and rereading their offerings. When we visit Maui and Kauai, we know our favorite restaurants AND we use things like Yelp to get the reviews of others. If we hit a gold mine (i.e. Kimo's in Maui) we don't need to surf back to it in coming years... we remember it (and have done so now for the past eight years). Having 150 restaurants bookmarked is a bit odd. That's not to say that there's anything wrong with that... just to say that I doubt very many people would operate in the same way. I can't think of anything that would require hundreds of bookmarks. Things change too rapidly and besides, outside of a few restaurants that I love, I like to try "new" things and not continue to frequent the places I've been to in the past. For that matter, our son and daughter-in-law both of whom work for MS and could conceivably have an excuse for having hundreds of bookmarks... don't. About a hundred bookmarks (or thereabouts) for most of my needs are all that are required and that can be handled very nicely with the QAB.

  • Originally posted by blackbird71:

    you post here over and over asserting that folks you know don't use many, if any, bookmarks. Then, when somebody goes to the trouble of explaining just one way in which real people (I am one, you know) use numerous bookmarks daily in the course of what they do, you characterize their usage as "strange". If you read my post, you saw that I clearly indicate that I don't expect to be considered as "average". However, many other folks I know DO use numerous bookmarks in one fashion or another, for one reason or another. So personal anecdotes do vary.

    I have two responses. First off, you didn't need to go to the trouble of explaining why you have hundreds of bookmarks. If you find them useful, then that's fine for you. Secondly, it is "strange" (even a bit weird) behavior in terms of MOST users. You admit that you are not typical or average. Maybe it's time Opera started catering a bit more to the typical and average user. Obviously catering to the geek squad did not produce much revenue.

    As for infinite configurability, who needs it? I would wager that most Opera users never used half of what the browser could do from either ignorance or apathy. Take the case of skins... who cares about skins? Evidently there are users out there whining that their favorite skins are no longer available and they don't know how they're going to continue on. This is so laughable it defies words. We can get our business done without skinning the browser and we can get our business done without many of the tab features whose current limited nature some posters are now lamenting. Most users don't like to infinitely tweak their browsers. They go online and get to the business at hand... and that's the end of it. Opera doesn't need to have its browser conform to everyone's wishes "out of the box". If you need a certain feature, hopefully extensions will be written for it. I want simple. I want a browser that is compatible with the social sites I visit. The current bookmarking system suits me just fine.

    Retaining its "genuine distinctiveness" which had been an Opera hallmark for many years did absolutely nothing for them other than guarantee few new users. Instead of maintaining the status quo (i.e. > 3%) Opera has decided to move forward for which I commend them.

  • Originally posted by leushino:

    With search being what it is today, there's really no need for copious numbers of bookmarks anymore... particularly numbering in the 1000's. That number is utterly ridiculous and I would guess that these "more powerful users" haven't a clue as to whether these bookmarks are current and even good anymore. Do you bookmark every site you ever surf to or what?

    Originally posted by leushino:

    First off, you didn't need to go to the trouble of explaining why you have hundreds of bookmarks. If you find them useful, then that's fine for you. Secondly, it is "strange" (even a bit weird) behavior in terms of MOST users. You admit that you are not typical or average.

    I find it fascinating that you assert using large numbers of bookmarks is ridiculous, as if anyone who claims to do it are clueless. Then, when somebody responds by giving an example of using them (and rich bookmarking is a far more "normal" example for users who actually employ a browser to accomplish "work", rather than for users who merely Google up the latest restaurant), you suggest it as "strange (even a bit weird) behavior". Perhaps you've never used a configurable web browser to actually do your job... perhaps you fail to understand what it means to see a hitherto-essential tool evaporating before your eyes. While you certainly have the right to your opinion and to express it, please don't over-generalize your experiences and browser usage patterns and marginalize the different-from-you browsing practices of others. Adjectives and phrases like 'ridiculous', 'haven't a clue', 'strange', or 'weird' are prejudicial terms. As such, they "need" to be challenged. Users are different, their browsing methods and priorities are different, and that needs to be respected.

  • I think you just want to argue now. That's fine. Be happy with your hundreds of bookmarks and infinitely configurable browser. Whatever floats your boat. (although I have a gut feeling it may be sinking)

  • Originally posted by leushino:

    I think you just want to argue now. That's fine. Be happy with your hundreds of bookmarks and infinitely configurable browser. Whatever floats your boat. (although I have a gut feeling it may be sinking)

    Actually, James, I believe the reverse is true with regard to arguing, as the continuing pattern of your responses to so many dozens of different user postings (but not all) over past months demonstrates, in my opinion. I have objections to two things when I post along these more negative lines: the direction Opera has taken thus far with the new browser, and the tone of responses to critics of that direction. I do genuinely want Opera to succeed, since it has been such an integral part of my work flow - I want to see that continue, if at all possible. And I also believe that Opera may yet listen to some of these critical postings, especially where a user's reasoning is provided. Where listening is still possible, there is the hope (however slight) that design decisions about the desktop browser can yet be influenced.

    In the end, my boat will float just fine, with Opera or without. As you probably know, I'm trialing other browsers. I've settled on one which, while not being a full subsitute, may suffice for about 75% of what I currently do within Old Opera. But, frankly, I'd much rather stay with Opera for a host of independent reasons. As it is, I continue watching and waiting. And commenting/criticizing as well, if I feel the situation warrants.

  • Originally posted by leushino:

    With search being what it is today, there's really no need for copious numbers of bookmarks anymore... particularly numbering in the 1000's. That number is utterly ridiculous and I would guess that these "more powerful users" haven't a clue as to whether these

    I really hope you are joking!
    Of course not everybody needs to have 1000+ bookmarks but many many people do.

    As for me I manage a lot of websites as a webmaster, I also manage multiples blogs and Google+ groups. It's about techology, music, artist and other things.
    I need to bookmark a lot of sites every day when I find something interesting to blog about in the near future. Sources, photos etc...
    It can be about an artist or an upcoming album/track release.
    When I blog about music and artists I also need many times to cross verify information.
    I don't always find all the information I need in a finger snap. But when I find it I need to categorize it and save it in folders AND as bookmarks.
    Yes I have many bookmarks and I delete also a lot of course but those I have they need to be "fresh" as a blog resource and easy to access to.

    So the basic question remains: Why on earth refuses Opera to implement a proper bookmark manager for people that really need it!!
    It could be inactive if Opera is afraid that it will confuse new users but nevertheless, IT SHOULD BE THERE!

    Can you give an example of any other modern browser that lack this basic and fundamental feature???

    So be careful when you say that 1000+ bookmarks is utterly ridiculous because your needs and view is not the only one on the internet!

  • Originally posted by leushino:

    Obviously catering to the geek squad did not produce much revenue.

    If Opera was catering to the 'geek squad' they would have open-sourced their browser a long time ago.

    Originally posted by leushino:

    Opera doesn't need to have its browser conform to everyone's wishes "out of the box". If you need a certain feature, hopefully extensions will be written for it. I want simple. I want a browser that is compatible with the social sites I visit. The current bookmarking system suits me just fine.

    Opera doesn't have to conform to everyone's needs. However, they can't expect long-time users to migrate to a browser that is completely different from the one they've been using.

    Originally posted by leushino:

    Retaining its "genuine distinctiveness" which had been an Opera hallmark for many years did absolutely nothing for them other than guarantee few new users. Instead of maintaining the status quo (i.e. > 3%) Opera has decided to move forward for which I commend them.

    How many new users will Opera get by targeting people who want a clone of Chrome as a web browser? You're assuming that it was the browser itself that was the problem. You fail to take into account that they released it under a proprietary license, the poor marketing done by Opera, and that the browsers with the largest market share are either proprietary and included with an operating system or open-source.

  • Originally posted by leushino:

    Opera is NOT on the radar of MOST people... period.

    Right. And what makes you or anybody think that has changed now? I haven't heard anything about the new thing aside from some tech savvy sites which reported to (and reached) the same group of people who already know Opera. Except now they know (or are getting told) how much Opium sucks.

  • Originally posted by Ervin74:

    Why on earth refuses Opera to implement a proper bookmark manager for people that really need it!!

    They have not refused to implement it. Who told you that? They have said they are working on it.

    Originally posted by Ervin74:

    But when I find it I need to categorize it and save it in folders AND as bookmarks.

    I also do that, and that's the way I prefer to work, but actually it's not a need, just a want. You could just add everything to the Stash, and use the search field in the Stash to find it, which is much quicker if you have 1,000+ bookmarks. Just think how much time you save by not organising your bookmarks.

  • Ah... I see I've disturbed the peanut gallery. Opera 18 works beautifully for me. Although I personally do not require a more sophisticated bookmark manager, I'm aware that it is being worked on. All in good time, boys... all in good time.

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