What happened to Opera while I've been gone?

A Former User

Originally posted by cooljoebay:

And to think how many hundreds of times I took a few seconds to click on that help menu to send information about a broken website.

Broken web sites were the main reason why Opera made the decision to drop development of Presto and switch to Webkit/Blink. Rather than investing so many resources in fixing Presto to work with web sites, they can invest a fraction of that time in fixing Blink, and the rest in improving the browser.

Although there are still many missing features, the Bookmarks Bar is already available, and more will return gradually. The switch brought several minor benefits like this — not only defects.

Deleted User

Deleted User

Originally posted by Pesala:

The switch brought several minor benefits like this — not only defects.

This particular benefit is annulled by inability to select text when it contains a link. This is by design, by the way http://my.opera.com/ODIN/blog/show.dml/59961552#comment105445992

Also, there is a CSS class that prevents the user from copying text. It didn't work in Presto (so it was okay) but is implemented in webkit http://my.opera.com/community/forums/topic.dml?id=1291752 This class is, IMHO, evil in principle. The user should be able to operate with what is displayed on the screen, otherwise what is the display good for? I always use a set of utterly different other browsers to go round odd problems like this. No single browser ever satisfied my needs completely, though Presto came close.

So, for these reasons, your example of benefit is imaginary.

stng

stng

Pesala

Broken web sites were the main reason why Opera made the decision to drop development of Presto and switch to Webkit/Blink.

"The reason for dropping Presto was indeed funding." (c) Former Opera Software ASA CEO and Opera's co-founder.

Rather than investing so many resources in fixing Presto to work with web sites, they can invest a fraction of that time in fixing Blink, and the rest in improving the browser.

A few specialists involved into the Browser.js(web-site fixing) department (less than 5 people, AFAIR) was an investing so many resources???
I'd rather not believe in this PR's fable.

Although there are still many missing features, the Bookmarks Bar is already available, and more will return gradually. The switch brought several minor benefits like this — not only defects.

That's doesn't make sense since Opera has lost all of its functionality (besides a very basic features) and customizability (that won't return back anyway, according to their PR).
The most advanced browser has turned into the faceless shell of the Blink engine and Chromim's framework. This is the end of Opera browser that we known and like.

A Former User

Originally posted by ersi:

This particular benefit is annulled by inability to select text when it contains a link.

I can select text that contains a link “topic.dml?id=1291752” or “http://my.opera.com/community/” How hard is that?

Originally posted by ersi:

Also, there is a CSS class that prevents the user from copying text. It didn't work in Presto (so it was okay) but is implemented in webkit

So that's another improvement due to the switch.

Originally posted by ersi:

IMHO, evil in principle.

:lol: Evil in principle to support CSS properly? Now I am sure that you have lost it. If you really want to select text that is supposed to be unselectable because it is defined to be unselectable, view the source code.

Originally posted by ersi:

The user should be able to operate with what is displayed on the screen, otherwise what is the display good for?

Err, it is good for reading and following links.

Deleted User

Deleted User

Originally posted by Pesala:

Originally posted by ersi:

This particular benefit is annulled by inability to select text when it contains a link.

I can select text that contains a link “topic.dml?id=1291752” or “http://my.opera.com/community/” How hard is that?

In Presto you were able to select from the middle of the text.

Originally posted by Pesala:

Originally posted by ersi:

IMHO, evil in principle.

:lol: Evil in principle to support CSS properly? Now I am sure that you have lost it. If you really want to select text that is supposed to be unselectable because it is defined to be unselectable, view the source code.

When speaking about selecting text, which was your example, then this CSS is counterproductive. Maybe Presto didn't support it for a good reason, consciously. Ever thought of it this way? :idea: They even included unsupported CSS and HTML elements in changelogs to show what they thought of the specs.

Then there's other good CSS that Presto supports and Webkit never did (and Blink never will), all discussed to death in the thread you loathe most. You are free to weigh the details for yourself, objectively.

Originally posted by Pesala:

Originally posted by ersi:

The user should be able to operate with what is displayed on the screen, otherwise what is the display good for?

Err, it is good for reading and following links.

So you'd be happy with an HTML viewer or restricted internet kiosk? Hardly an improvement.

Anyway, talk is cheap. Your main browser is Opera 11.64. Actions speak louder than words. You dabble in Chropera and pretend to defend it just to infuriate people. You are succeeding too.

missingno

missingno

:sherlock:

This non-standard property: http://css-tricks.com/almanac/properties/u/user-select/ ?
Good thing Opera never supported it.

A Former User

Originally posted by ersi:

Maybe Presto didn't support it for a good reason, consciously. Ever thought of it this way?

I don't subscribe to conspiracy theories. If you can link to a post by Opera Presto devs stating that it was a conscious choice, I would believe it.

Originally posted by ersi:

Anyway, talk is cheap.

Your divisive talk about “Chopera” is not just cheap, it's worse than worthless. Whether you like it or not, Opera is moving on. When it has the features that I need then I will start using it as my default browser, which may be at least six month or never. Until then, I am happy to use Opera 11.64 and I will continue to help users get to grips with the inevitable, while still providing constructive feedback so that what is not inevitable can be avoided, i.e. things that can and should be done in future versions of Opera.

Originally posted by ersi:

In Presto you were able to select from the middle of the text.

The 1 in 100 use case is trumped by the 99/100 use case of selecting plain text on the web page, whether that's for copying to the clipboard, searching, or using “Go to web address.”

My motives for posting have nothing to do with defending Opera and everything to do with helping users, and preventing the spread of disinformation by disaffected users, aka Trolls.

For someone who hates the new Opera so much, you sure waste a lot of your time attacking it, when you could be learning how to use Firefox, or whatever browser you intend to use after dumping Opera 12. Your negative posts won't do anything to turn the Opera devs away from their chosen path. If you want to improve Opera Next, post in the blogs, report bugs, etc.

stng

stng

Originally posted by missingno:

:sherlock:

This non-standard property: http://css-tricks.com/almanac/properties/u/user-select/ ?

The standard is irrelevant since Internet overlords (Google, M$) have decided to support it.

missingno

missingno

Originally posted by Pesala:

The 1 in 100 use case is trumped by the 99/100 use case of selecting plain text on the web page

This isn't a 1 in 100 use case. Use case is "be able to select text within a link". Either you can or you cannot. The other 99 use cases are (hopefully) still supported by any modern browser. You only could argue that supporting 100/100 use cases isn't much better than supporting 99/100 use cases.

Originally posted by STNG:

The standard is irrelevant since Internet overlords (Google, M$) have decided to support it.

I know, right? Because that is what made Opera so different: open the web.

frenzie

frenzie

Originally posted by Pesala:

The 1 in 100 use case is trumped by the 99/100 use case of selecting plain text on the web page, whether that's for copying to the clipboard, searching, or using “Go to web address.” (emphasis mine)

Plain text? Do go on.

Deleted User

Deleted User

Originally posted by Pesala:

Originally posted by ersi:

Maybe Presto didn't support it for a good reason, consciously. Ever thought of it this way?

I don't subscribe to conspiracy theories.

I don't subscribe to theories in general. I subscribe to facts. I resort to theories only inasmuch as they help to organise facts.

The fact is that Presto didn't support this element and, as other helpful guys have pointed out to you, it is not even a standard. You are free to believe whatever about who loses what in this case. For me it's a clear indisputable fact that users lose when rendering engines implement this element. Regardless of its standardisation, I stand behind my humble opinion that this element is evil in principle.

Originally posted by Pesala:

If you can link to a post by Opera Presto devs stating that it was a conscious choice, I would believe it.

Facts are not a matter of belief. Either you see it or you don't. Here's a fact http://www.opera.com/docs/changelogs/windows/1150b/

Selectors API
Implemented Element.oMatchesSelector.

Prefixed implementation of the Element interface .matchesSelector method with "o".

Note: The refNodes parameter is not supported.

Here you see (or you don't) an element that is listed as not supported. Why? They don't tell. The fact that they list it should imply that they were conscious about lack of support for the element, but it's not always necessary to tell why, even though ODIN blog has historically shared long posts on what this or that element does, reflecting discussions on if it's sensible to implement an element or not. When you dig in the changelogs, you will see such cases with references to blog posts with discussions too.

Just an incidental fact about Chrome. No Linux distribution that I know of (and I know a bunch) keeps Chrome in their repositories, even though mostly they seek to have all common software available so users could install stuff comfily. All distro teams have made an exception in Chrome's case. Even Ubuntu. Nobody supports Chrome. Why? They don't tell very publicly. If you want, you are free to believe that this is a "conspiracy theory". You may even believe that this is an actual conspiracy against Chrome or Google, because this is what the fact looks like. Or, you may investigate this issue with an open mind, like an autonomous rational being, to see what the reasons are. (Then again, Chromium is there in the repositories.)

Originally posted by Pesala:

Originally posted by ersi:

Anyway, talk is cheap.

Your divisive talk about “Chopera” is not just cheap, it's worse than worthless. Whether you like it or not, Opera is moving on. When it has the features that I need then I will start using it as my default browser, which may be at least six month or never. Until then, I am happy to use Opera 11.64 and I will continue to help users get to grips with the inevitable, while still providing constructive feedback so that what is not inevitable can be avoided, i.e. things that can and should be done in future versions of Opera.

Well, I largely agree, though probably not in a way you'd expect. Same as you, I know that Opera is moving on, but different from you, I see a huge problem with the way they are moving on. Then again, I also imagine I'm being constructive in voicing my opinion about this. For example, same as you, I am being as detailed in my feedback as possible and feasible, but different from you, I don't call people trolls when doing it. In my opinion, calling people trolls is divisive. In the end, I disagree about the "inevitable". Chropera was evitable for the company and it is evitable for the users. All that it takes is some backbone. There are threads and long posts here giving detailed instructions on how to migrate to other software; inasmuch as I have visited software forums, this phenomenon is unprecedented.

Originally posted by Pesala:

Originally posted by ersi:

In Presto you were able to select from the middle of the text.

The 1 in 100 use case is trumped by the 99/100 use case...

These calculations would apply when considering whether to implement a feature or not. In this case we are discussing the opposite: A feature that has been dropped when compared to a previous version of the product by the same name. As a principle, "development" should mean that the product acquires more features as the version number grows. This has not been the case with Opera since version 12. And now it's just the name that is the same. Everything else has been dropped and changed but the name. It's a completely different product and I am against this different product pretty much entirely. I am against it because I happen to actually know the product.

This is an issue, seriously, but could be easily resolved by being straight-up open that it's a different product. For example, name it appropriately. If the company does not do it, users will, necessarily so: Chropera. Opium. Etc.

Originally posted by Pesala:

My motives for posting have nothing to do with defending Opera and everything to do with helping users, and preventing the spread of disinformation by disaffected users, aka Trolls.

For someone who hates the new Opera so much, you sure waste a lot of your time attacking it, when you could be learning how to use Firefox, or whatever browser you intend to use after dumping Opera 12. Your negative posts won't do anything to turn the Opera devs away from their chosen path.

I have used multiple browsers all along - and this is exactly the issue. I know from direct experience (plus stats and tech reviews) how things stand in the desktop front and in the mobile front, on Windows and on Linux.

Of course I know the company won't change its course. This is not my aim anyway. Change of the course would be a side-effect of my activity if I were to be amazingly successful (which I won't be). I'm not even here to prevent anyone from using it. It's okay that people do the testing for me, so I know what to avoid, but when I know what to avoid and how to do better, then it's also nice to speak up too, right? My main aim is to keep an eye on what's going on with this company and its products and to clarify the situation to everyone (including myself), because, rationally and business-wise, nothing here makes sense. I speak about the situation as it is: They did the unthinkable. They cooked up nonsense of epic proportions. Namely, they made a Chrome clone. And please educate yourself on technical terminology, because "clone" is a specific technical term in software, not derogatory. In case of browsers, the rendering engine is the determining factor. Of course, you can use it in a derogatory way, but this can be done only when you make a clone and you deny that it's a clone. Which is what you are doing!

So, please, share straightforward information from now on. Like moderator Leevi does: It's a Chrome clone.

If you want to improve Opera Next, post in the blogs, report bugs, etc.

It is very difficult improve a Chrome clone. The current policies make it actually impossible. For example bug-reporting is pointless. This is what expert bug reporters say http://my.opera.com/QuHno/blog/does-it-still-make-sense-to-test-for-rendering-or-scripting-bugs-in-opera

A Former User

Originally posted by ersi:

Here you see (or you don't) an element that is listed as not supported. Why? They don't tell. The fact that they list it should imply that they were conscious about lack of support for the element, but it's not always necessary to tell why

I suspect it is the usual reason — because, though supported by other browsers, it's not yet an accepted standard. It might also be just that they thought it unimportant and didn't have time for it. Since it is already implemented in Webkit/Blink, they would need a good reason to consciously drop it, and there isn't one other than your “preventing users from selecting text is inherently evil” theory.

Originally posted by ersi:

These calculations would apply when considering whether to implement a feature or not. In this case we are discussing the opposite:

In this case we are discussing the ability to select text on a web page word-by-word by dragging with the mouse. This is impossible in Opera Presto, but possible in Opera Blink.

Originally posted by ersi:

Then again, I also imagine I'm being constructive in voicing my opinion about this.

Your imagination is deluded. You already got warned twice about being banned. Posting derogatory remarks about Chropera, and using swear words is not being constructive at all. You don't like being called a troll, so don't behave like one.

Deleted User

Deleted User

Originally posted by Pesala:

Originally posted by ersi:

These calculations would apply when considering whether to implement a feature or not. In this case we are discussing the opposite:

In this case we are discussing the ability to select text on a web page word-by-word by dragging with the mouse. This is impossible in Opera Presto, but possible in Opera Blink.

I thought we were discussing also the ability to select text in the middle of a link, but okay. You can limit the discussion any way you like.

Originally posted by Pesala:

Originally posted by ersi:

Then again, I also imagine I'm being constructive in voicing my opinion about this.

Your imagination is deluded. You already got warned twice about being banned. Posting derogatory remarks about Chropera, and using swear words is not being constructive at all. You don't like being called a troll, so don't behave like one.

I always left both the level of discussion and exact expressions up to you as you are the native speaker here and not me I don't feel either way about "troll" because I honestly have no clue what it means. I only see how people react to it. On the other hand, I have a very specific idea what "clone" means because I have spoken about it with experts on the matter. But from your reactions I see that you don't have a clue about this concept and you don't want to know either. It's a failure to acknowledge a fact, but if you insist, fine.

Deleted User

Deleted User

Your posts here have never been helpful as have Pesala's. Instead, you have sought to undermine Opera at every turn and when this is pointed out you simply say you have no idea what we're talking about. That's disingenuous behavior and deep down I believe you know that. It's been pointed out more than once that your continuing presence on the Opera forums is rather odd given your hatred of what Opera has become and your acknowledgement that it is not going to reverse its direction. That being the case, why not just go elsewhere (i.e. Mozilla forums)? The fact that you have not been banned is a testament to the liberal-mindedness of the Opera Team.

Deleted User

Deleted User

Originally posted by leushino:

The fact that you have not been banned is a testament to the liberal-mindedness of the Opera Team.

Acknowledged. However, testament to what is the fact that these forums will be deleted and new ones put up?

missingno

missingno

Originally posted by Pesala:

In this case we are discussing the ability to select text on a web page word-by-word by dragging with the mouse. This is impossible in Opera Presto, but possible in Opera Blink.

And by that, you mean it is impossible to select text on a web page character-by-character by dragging with the mouse in Opera Blink? Because those two behaviours are kind of mutual exclusive. (Well, technically, if you select character-by-character you can select word-by-word by starting before the first word and stopping after the last one.)

A Former User

Originally posted by missingno:

And by that, you mean it is impossible to select text on a web page character-by-character by dragging with the mouse in Opera Blink? Because those two behaviours are kind of mutual exclusive.

Try it yourself and you will see that either can be done in Opera 18. Just select and drag to select by character, Double-click the first word and drag to select word-by-word. Try that in Opera Presto.

See the linked thread for discussion of the topic. This is a very minor improvement, but I am just saying that there are some benefits of the switch to Blink, apart from the greater speed, and greater compatibility. Some people only see the negatives, which are obvious and don't need any more repeating after three months of such comments. They are known issues, and are being worked on as we speak.

blackbird71

blackbird71

Originally posted by ersi:

Originally posted by leushino:

The fact that you have not been banned is a testament to the liberal-mindedness of the Opera Team.

Acknowledged. However, testament to what is the fact that these forums will be deleted and new ones put up?

Testimony to 'outsourcing', perhaps? For better and for worse (and, seriously, there's sometimes a LOT of "worse"), it's the trend in modern business operations. In Opera's case: outsource the browser rendering engine... outsource the care/maintenance of development blogs... outsource the care/maintenance of the forums(?)... and so on. A problem arises when outsourcing, however - a company loses a little of the personality it conveys to customers each time and in each sector in which it does it. Responsibility is diluted and, ultimately, lost.

Case in point: the "new" Opera's bug reporting. Imagine an auto manufacturer responding to customer complaints about vehicle acceleration by responding... "That appears to be an engine problem, not the car itself. We build the car around company Xxxxx's engines, so you really need to deal with Xxxxx to resolve it. Goodbye, and have a nice day." In that industry, such an attitude framed by outsourcing would constitute a certifiable going-out-of-business plan. But it IS a potential consequence each and every time something touching the "customer experience" is committed to outsourcing. And by outsourcing all manner of customer-facing elements, even though costs might seemingly be reduced, customers can be driven away...

missingno

missingno

Originally posted by Pesala:

Try it yourself and you will see that either can be done in Opera 18.

Can't do that, I'm on Linux. Won't do that if I could at the moment, so I take your word.

Originally posted by Pesala:

Double-click the first word and drag to select word-by-word.

It is working that way in this textarea in Opera Presto, though.

ruario

ruario

Originally posted by ersi:

This particular benefit is annulled by inability to select text when it contains a link.

You can change this behaviour with an extension Hyperlink Text Selector (Opera direct install link).

After it is installed, reload any tabs you already had open and then when you hold shift you can select text within a link. You lose the default Opera behaviour where shift+click opens the link in a new Window but personally I never used that anyway.