Opera 17, pros and cons
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A Former User last edited by
Originally posted by rs79:
Forms have been destroyed.
The best thing to do about that is to submit a bug report. Ranting here won't help.
The other stuff has been said more than enough already. I am waiting for at least GUI customising to return, then I can add my own Home button or whatever I need.
Opera have always innovated. Some users dislike speed dial, and never use it, but it turned out to be popular. Maybe Stash will too when people actually figure out how to use it. I personally won't ever use Discover — but then I don't have to.
Don't plan your future on everything that you love about Opera returning in the future. Some features will, no doubt, but an awful lot more may never return — you may have to rely on extensions for Notes, for example.
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quiviro last edited by
I'm still using Opera 12 but I wanna update and give a try to 17.
Can you tell me if my bookmarks and my notes will stay in link.opera.com after the update?
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A Former User last edited by
Originally posted by quiviro:
Can you tell me if my bookmarks and my notes will stay in link.opera.com after the update?
You should keep local backups anyway, but yes they should still be there. Install Opera 17 separately and keep your existing installation. To import your profile to Opera 17 after installing it, run it with this shortcut:
"<Full path to Opera 17>\launcher.exe" --presto-small-prefs-dir="<Full path to Opera Presto>\profile" -
rs79 last edited by
I'll file bug reports when I finish finding bugs! But they're not really bugs they're missing features.
Speed dial is really cool and I can see the merit of providing the alternative world behind web pages it provides and this is thoughtfully done in both design and aesthetics. But if you don't need it it's a huge price to pay for losing fundamental and essential features.
I'm not really sure why it's not an add on.
It may in turn not be possible to satisfy both goals: making it the simplest possible user interface reflecting modern design directions and be the full featured noble workhorse of a tool is used to be in the same package. Having a "Home" and "Pro" version of the browser is one possible solution. MS legitimize this really well with XP I thought.
Also I notice it has the same minor quirks that Chrome does in it's behavior. I'm guessing this isn't Opera code with WebKit and V8 added to it, just a stripped down re-branded version of chrome and now the decisions have to be made what gets put back in.
Not sure why the home button was taken out though.
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rs79 last edited by
I did submit a bug report on the broken forms though. No other missing feature will cost quite so much time lost/wasted as that one.
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cogitosum last edited by
Another thing that's gone missing from Opera 17 is the ability to right-click an image and display the image Exif via the drop-down menu. Opera 12 was near-enough unique in having this excellent function. For other browsers you have to get an add-on. Unfortunately no-one has written an add-on for Opera 17.
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rs79 last edited by
Yeah, that and right click --> "open image" has been replaced by Chrome's useless "Open image in new tab".
Again, more mouse clicks to do the same thing.
Image Properties was utterly invaluable too, as you point out.
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rs79 last edited by
Note also the Cert stuff has changed rather drastically. I think this is a good thing. Pretty sure.
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Deleted User last edited by
Originally posted by rs79:
It doesn't matter if you like stash and discovery or not, that's nothing to do with anything. However the automatic presumption everyone will like them is flawed; they should be options.
Yes indeed. AND it doesn't matter that YOU don't like Stash and Discover and yet it was YOU who raised the issue in the first place. I'm simply posting back to you that there are differences of opinion and yours should not trump anyone else's.
Opera built a reputation on a browser that let you work better, smarter and faster. You could get more things done with the Opera browser in a given period of time than with any other browse, and this wasn't one thing it was a combination of a bunch of little things. Over time the ability to work on the web got better, not only for Opera users, but for the rest of the web with things like tabs and css coming from Opera.
So, as time goes on it would be reasonable to expect it gets even easier to work on the web because of more innovations from Opera and switching to V8 and WebKit were done for this reason. You can get more stuff done, faster.
Taking away functionality is not a step forward.
I've probably been using Opera longer than you (since 1999 back when I paid for it) so I know a thing or two about its functionality. The fact is, Opera never gained much more acceptance than 3% worldwide and evidently that was not completely acceptable to those with a financial say in the company's operations (that would be shareholders... not you nor I). Functionality has not been taken away. You can still use v.12.16 so use it. Functionality is being added to the new browser and only time will tell whether what is added back will meet your requirements.
But I don't see throwing away 15 years worth of refinements in one go like this. It just makes no sense.
If you would go and read the dev blogs, you would understand better what is being done. It's a Herculean task to rewrite the browser. Many of the so-called refinements of which you speak will be added back according to what I've read. Some unfortunately will not. That's life, my friend. Nothing stays the same and given the fact that Opera is a free piece of software, I would say that you don't really have much to complain about. If it does not meet with your requirements then you have the options of going elsewhere, remaining with an older version which is still receiving security patches and/or installing the new version alongside the older version to keep a closer watch on how things progress. But to simply ramble on a list of complaints ALL of which have already been enumerated hundreds of times in the forum threads is nigh to useless. It is what it is. They're not about to reverse their new direction so you're going to have to adapt, be patient or leave. Those are your choices.
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frenzie last edited by
Originally posted by scratchspace:
PS As a point of clarification, when you say "everything you typed before, all of it, every letter, is all there", I presume that you intend to be taken literally. However, note that v.12 does not, in my experience, actually do what you say. Specifically, when, after having clicked the "submit" button on the form and having gone to the next page, you return to the form on the previous page, neither password fields nor checkboxes for things that you might have opted out of will be in the same condition that you left them in. So, for example, you will return to find that the password field is blank.
I don't know about checkboxes, but the password is kind of a special case. I also know that Firefox improved a fair bit in this area since… 23?
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Deleted User last edited by
Frenzie, I've learned to respect your opinions over these months of back and forth. I'm curious about something. Given the choice between Chrome and Firefox, which would you choose and why? And if privacy were not an issue, would your choice change? If so, why? BTW... there was an interesting article in PC Pro today on the Reset button being added to Chrome.
http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/security/385129/chrome-gets-reset-button-to-fix-hijacked-settings
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Deleted User last edited by
Originally posted by scratchspace:
it seems to me that this forum cannot afford to be discouraging posters who exhibit even just the minimal degree of reason, and the OP's posts here certainly exceed that standard.
Oh come on now. You're being just a wee bit overly dramatic if you think my paltry words are going to have much effect upon anyone. I simply told him the truth (albeit as I see it). He has some decisions to make and rather than wringing his hands and rambling on about things we've heard a thousand times before, it behooves him to inform himself of what has gone on before. We know what is lacking. We don't need this outlined a thousand times over. We're faced with a relatively simple set of options and I outlined them. And that is really the long and short of it. I'm not into trying to soothe those who wear their feelings upon their sleeves. This is software, not a way of life. Nothing stays the same... nothing. Sooner or later something had to give and it appears that the shoe has fallen and that something is the death of myOpera and the end of the Presto version of the desktop. And my gut feeling tells me that the email client (standalone) has its days numbered as well. I believe this is little more than a temporary fix for those who were tied into the email client (which to my understanding was not a great number). Opera is changing but so is Microsoft. In fact on Windows Weekly this past week we were informed that the desktop as we know it has its days numbered as well. People had better get used to it. I've been down this road before when the rug was pulled out from under those of us who were Netscape users (Netscape was my browser suite from version 3.0 to 9). It was not the end of the world. Low and behold, the sun rose the next day and life continued on, unabated. There were a few drama queens who foretold death and destruction but they never materialized. And Opera appears to have more than its fair share of drama queens. Life goes on, my friend... with or without Opera.
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frenzie last edited by
Originally posted by leushino:
Frenzie, I've learned to respect your opinions over these months of back and forth. I'm curious about something. Given the choice between Chrome and Firefox, which would you choose and why? And if privacy were not an issue, would your choice change?
I would choose Firefox because it comes with more features I like out of the box, and I also tend to like its extensions better. This goes from basics like the cookie manager, the newsfeed notification button,* and better bookmarks, to more advanced things like userChrome.css, userContent.css, GreaseMonkey, Stylish, NoScript, etc. In the case of e.g. Stylish it's simply the interface I prefer. I find Chromium's settings rather drawn-out and they seem to take many pages for what could fit on one screen. Discarding privacy wouldn't change my opinion.
* Unfortunately no longer displayed in Fx by default, but still part of the default features without any extensions.
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Deleted User last edited by
I think you just enjoy a good argument. And as your chosen handle indicates, you like to express yourself in carefully crafted sentences. And that's fine but at the end of the day none of this means very much. Opera has its marching orders and it will continue to do what the board tells it to do. But I suppose these community forums give us the false belief that we can effect change. We can't. Oh how this entire episode brings back memories of the end of Netscape. The more things change the more they stay the same.
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A Former User last edited by
Originally posted by scratchspace:
as well as on the developer blogs, of course
If you want the developers to hear you, that's the best place. This forum is a user2user forum for getting help on using Opera. The Wish-list is for feature requests.
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quhno last edited by
Originally posted by Pesala:
Originally posted by rs79:
Forms have been destroyed.
The best thing to do about that is to submit a bug report.
Wrong place - that is a general Chromium problem and so the bug report should be filed for Chromium if you want that fixed.
Here is how to do thatYes, yes, I know:
We are Opera users and want to file bugs to Opera and not to Chromium. Been there, had that discussion with a dev in the #snapshot IRC channel too ... -
frenzie last edited by
Originally posted by QuHno:
Yes, yes, I know:
We are Opera users and want to file bugs to Opera and not to Chromium. Been there, had that discussion with a dev in the #snapshot IRC channel too ...And on the Desktop Team blog.
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quhno last edited by
Originally posted by Frenzie:
And on the Desktop Team blog.
... and in other places - yes :p :lol:
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frenzie last edited by
I have to say it's disappointing that what I call regressions (compared to Presto) don't get any special attention by Opera or something.
Plus frankly the Blink bug report system is a bit confusing compared to others I've used.
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rs79 last edited by
1) Speed Dial/Home Page
"Yes indeed. AND it doesn't matter that YOU don't like Stash and Discover and yet it was YOU who raised the issue in the first place. I'm simply posting back to you that there are differences of opinion and yours should not trump anyone else's."Ok, let's look at this carefully.
Used to be, you had an option of when a page starts to get:
a) A page you want (this has historically) been your home page[1]
b) Speed dial.Now your options are:
a) Speed dial.See the problem?
This shouldn't be about opinions, whether mine is right and you lose, or yours is right I and Lose. That's win/lose.
This is why we have "options". Options are good. This way we both win.
Used to be you could fire up a new instance of Opera and you'd get your home page. Then, somewhere around the time tabs and speed dial came in it stopped going to your home page automatically and went to speed dial. Ok, that's less convenient, I never use speed dial so I click home and get my home page back.
Now I can't click home.
Stop making this harder! It's a fundamental f'ing feature of a web browser!
Consumers. Like. Options.
2) Opera 12 gets work done faster than any other browser.
"I've probably been using Opera longer than you (since 1999)".
I've used Opera since Version 3 and used it as my "daily browser" since version 5. I used Netscape (0.99 the day it came out) before that and Mosaic before that and Lynx before that and comp.infosystems.www in the late 80s, cause, well, good friends of mine invented stuff like MIME and SGML and I've always had an interest in computer graphics and text layout since the bell labs/unix days in the 70s. I've spent the last 20 years working on a CMS package and understand the specs and standards of ALL this stuff pretty darned well and I'm telling you authoritatively Opera is the only damn browser that works, and that there are fewer mouse clicks and key-presses than with any other browser to do the same thing. This is not an opinion, this is a quantifiable metric.
The initial assumption that WebKit and V8 would be slipped into the V12 browser turned out to be specious, and that's an issue.
Let me take a video of the forms problem, there's no point in talking about it when it's so painfully easy to show.
[1] the page you go to when you click the home button that has everywhere you need to go to. These have been around since the 1980s, and refined over the years.
