Where is the menu bar?
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A Former User last edited by
Originally posted by Frenzie:
The tab bar is at least as useless. The title bar, on the other hand, is not.
Is it useless to see at a glance several titles so that you know which tab to select? Hovering a tab stack shows a whole lot more. The title bar is only showing one tab's title — the one that you're currently viewing. How is that useful? Don't you know which thread you're reading now? -
svetivoda last edited by
Frenzie you are so wrong about tab bar. In a matter of fact you are the first one i ever heard to complain about tab bar. Have we misunderstood something?
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frenzie last edited by
Originally posted by Pesala:
Is it useless to see at a glance several titles so that you know which tab to select?
You can see the same thing if you press Ctrl+Tab. By your own reasoning the tab bar is wasting space when you don't use it. As a matter of fact, just like for the menu bar, I've got a keyboard toggle for the tab bar. I often have it disabled.
Originally posted by Pesala:
The title bar is only showing one tab's title — the one that you're currently viewing. How is that useful? Don't you know which thread you're reading now?
I don't know the exact title without scrolling up. It's my handle for interacting with windows within my window manager. It lets me know whether a bookmark will have a usable title or not.
Originally posted by svetivoda:
Frenzie you are so wrong about tab bar. In a matter of fact you are the first one i ever heard to complain about tab bar. Have we misunderstood something?
As a matter of fact I think the windows panel is much more useful than the tab bar, although that's more of an implementation detail than something inherent to tab bars. For most general use I prefer Ctrl+Tab. My point is that just because Pesala thinks something is useful or useless doesn't mean everybody agrees. Opera/Presto accommodates us both,* yet Opera/Blink accommodates neither of us.
I'm well aware that these are my personal preferences. I presented them the way I did to hopefully prove a point to Pesala.
* Not exactly, for Opera 10.50+ doesn't allow hiding the menubar without also hiding the titlebar. I used to toggle the menubar on and off with a keyboard shortcut, but since 2010 it just made that horrible zombie button pop up.
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j7nj7n last edited by
Under the Windows standard theme (now something like classic/legacy theme), the title bar is left showing with Opera 10 to 12 whether the menu bar is on or not. It is useful to read the page title immediately without waiting for a tooltip to come up when hovering over the current tab. If many tabs begin with the same characters (because they are from the same site), it is helpful to see the full title. You could argue that the authors of such sites could supply more suitable, shorter titles, but with title bar showing I browse their sites without asking or waiting for them to be changed.
I have the menu bar disabled mainly because the sub-window (document) icon in the top left corner is extremely confusing if showing together with tabs instead of traditional MDI windows. With the blank sheet, it looks like a "new document" icon that could be used to open a new page (the equivalent of the "+" to the right. When in fact it is not, and accidentally double-clicking it, thinking that the first click did not register, would cause the current page, which can be a disaster.
The window/tab is down below, yet its icon is above it near the menus:
The document icon is down with the document window itself, and only along the menu bar if the window is maximized, which a tabbed window does not "appear" to be. You can see the blank sheet icon right there.
The menu compacted into a single button is hard to navigate because it has too many levels. If I am not careful enough with my mouse I can get the large cascading menu to close on me. With that many levels I also sometimes feel lost because I cannot remember functions by position. Say Help is to the right, and File is to the left. Instead they are all to the left.
If you wanted to launch Dragonfly, you would have to make 4 clicks. That is too many for a "menu-memory". Most commands in normal menus are launched with just 2 clicks. Also Dragonfly sounds like a "tool", and should be near the end, just before Help or Exit, but for some reason it is at the top under Page. This breaks the established convention of where a "tools" menu should be.
I have made a compromise and brought out the close button, the bookmarks menu, and Dragonfly as toolbar buttons, while having the menu bar disabled, and not used.
The menu and title bars existed in application software since MS DOS, and the same commands can be found in the same places within those bars, which allows to start using a new program without learning it.
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frenzie last edited by
Originally posted by j7nj7n:
Under the Windows standard theme (now something like classic/legacy theme), the title bar is left showing with Opera 10 to 12 whether the menu bar is on or not.
I also very much enjoy the titlebar on Linux in conjunction with a disabled menubar, but somewhat annoyingly that damned zombie button keeps resurrecting itself.
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A Former User last edited by
There's a great amount of wasted space to the right of the menu bar which could hold useful entries.
I have to agree here.
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The tab bar is at least as useless.
Without the Tab bar and the navigation Bar, the program is utterly useless AFAIC.
You can see the same thing if you press Ctrl+Tab.
I hate keyboard shortcuts. Something more to remember,AND they cause enormous problems for me up to and including closer the program when you hit the wrong keys(s) due to not being a typer.
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The menu and title bars existed in application software since MS DOS, and the same commands can be found in the same places within those bars, which allows to start using a new program without learning it.
Past practice is good.
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frenzie last edited by
Originally posted by videobruce:
Without the Tab bar and the navigation Bar, the program is utterly useless AFAIC.
I used the program without either for years.
Z and x for back and forth, shift+x for fast forward. I returned those particular buttons because they're useful as indicators, and occasionally I do actually have my hand on the mouse—although in that case I tend to use flip back (hold right button, click left button) and flip forward (hold left button, click right button).Originally posted by videobruce:
I hate keyboard shortcuts. Something more to remember,AND they cause enormous problems for me up to and including closer the program when you hit the wrong keys(s) due to not being a typer.
Like I said, I think both ways of using the program are valid. What I object to is the One Right Way
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svetivoda last edited by
With one exeption (OK, let's say... 3) everyone agrees about necessity of tab bar. We should stick to topic now and that is - menu bar, or open a new thread.
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A Former User last edited by
Originally posted by svetivoda:
We should stick to topic now and that is - menu bar,
That might set a dangerous precedent — people actually sticking to the topic
The topic has been answered, and there's nothing much to add.
The OP asked, “Where's the menu bar in Opera 16?” The answer is its not there, except for the Opera Button menu.
Better search the wish-list, and add your voice to an existing thread requesting the menu bar in Opera Next. I am fairly sure there is already such a thread.
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frenzie last edited by
Originally posted by Pesala:
The topic has been answered, and there's nothing much to add.
C'est vrais.
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importearnest last edited by
Pesala ... I have been to your website and cannot reconcile the views expressed there and your posts here.
svetivoda: wrote ... "We should stick to topic now and that is - menu bar"
Your very first response was "I am not sure why anyone needs to waste space with a menu bar. It might be useful if the Alt key pulled down the menus at the top like it does in IE, or in full-screen Opera, but there's really nothing fundamentally wrong with pulling it down at the side instead of the top.
In Windows 7 I don't see the underlined letters for access keys, but that may just be a setting that needs changing on my setup.
To get to the Print dialogue, use Ctrl P, or Alt, then R (not Alt R)"
Your efforts to keep to the topic have been minimal ... except for your final: "The topic has been answered, and there's nothing much to add." Why not just say that at the beginning rather than all the "add"?
Your quotes of my post were accompanied with what I interpret as snide, belittling and disingenuous responses from you. If you read my post more intelligibility you will see that your responses are also foolish. Your are offensive to me. Read up your Buddhism!
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Deleted User last edited by
Pesala tries to be logical and answer questions as best he can, but it has been my personal observation that the dispassion for which he strives is far from having been achieved. In short - there is a considerable disconnect at times that is rather disconcerting. S he has snidely mentioned regarding me, I now return the favor: the good thing about these forums is that you can Ignore those users you so choose.;)
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A Former User last edited by
Originally posted by importearnest:
Your very first response was "I am not sure why anyone needs to waste space with a menu bar. It might be useful if the Alt key pulled down the menus at the top like it does in IE, or in full-screen Opera, but there's really nothing fundamentally wrong with pulling it down at the side instead of the top.
Which answered the first post, albeit in an indirect way. There is no menu bar at the top, it opens at the side, and what is your problem with that?
Originally posted by importearnest:
How is this helpful? You aren't being asked how you get around Opera, but "Where is the Menu?"
Well, a simplistic answer, “It's not there” is of no use at all. So, I dig a bit deeper to see what the real problem is, and how we can help the OP.
Originally posted by foundaustin:
I'm about to forget Opera for good if there's no menu bar.
It is childish remarks like this that are the problem. If people come here to whine and make threats that they will ditch Opera if they don't get what they want, what can we say other than explain “This is how it is, and here is how to use it as it is at the moment?”
Originally posted by Pesala:
In Windows 7 I don't see the underlined letters for access keys, but that may just be a setting that needs changing on my setup.To get to the Print dialogue, use Ctrl P, or Alt, then R (not Alt R)"
So how is that off-topic? It acknowledges an apparent problem with the use of the menus with the keyboard. I can see that it is not a problem with my Windows settings, because the underlined letters do show in Opera 11.64 and Opera 12.16 if I use the keyboard, but not if using the mouse, which is as expected. I have now filed a bug report about this for Opera 18: DNA-1404
Originally posted by importearnest:
Read up your Buddhism!
It is you who needs to read up your Buddhism. The Buddha sometimes said was not liked by others if he knew that it was beneficial. There's a lot of irate users posting on these forums who need to learn how to adapt to the way things are, not living in a fantasy world of how they ought to be (according to them).
Originally posted by importearnest:
Your quotes of my post
Select some text, and use the Quick Quote link below the reply box so that we know who you are quoting.
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A Former User last edited by
Originally posted by leushino:
In short - there is a considerable disconnect at times that is rather disconcerting.
To remove your disconcerting disconnection with reality, do some meditation practice. Instead of praying to some non-existent being in the sky to resolve your personal issues, contemplate your own thoughts to resolve your inner conflicts. You alone are responsible for you own actions, speech, and thoughts. If you find them disconcerting, then change them.
Don't confuse dispassion with disinterest. It important for everyone's well-being that they learn to adapt to the way things are. Otherwise, they will never find contentment, whether it's with a piece of software that they use daily, their family and associates, or the world in general.
To get back on topic. There is no menu bar in Opera 18 or 19. IMO it is unlikely to return (though perhaps it will in Linux). So what should people do? Continue complaining, or learn to live without it? The obvious thing to do is comment on the existing wish-list thread, then make one's own choice which browser to use.
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frenzie last edited by
Originally posted by Pesala:
Don't confuse dispassion with disinterest. It important for everyone's well-being that they learn to adapt to the way things are. Otherwise, they will never find contentment, whether it's with a piece of software that they use daily, their family and associates, or the world in general.
You shouldn't be content with the way things are. Besides, you can be content with your life without being content with the world in general, unless you let your discontentment turn into an obsession. Even if I were content with life in Europe in each and every facet, how could I be content with the rampant poverty in Bangladesh or the oppression in Saudi-Arabia?
Originally posted by Pesala:
To get back on topic. There is no menu bar in Opera 18 or 19. IMO it is unlikely to return (though perhaps it will in Linux). So what should people do? Continue complaining, or learn to live without it? The obvious thing to do is comment on the existing wish-list thread, then make one's own choice which browser to use.
There are no mutually exclusive options there.
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j7nj7n last edited by
If Opium's main intention was to stop "wasting" screen space, then how come the tabs and address bar became padded with blank space increasing their size? Or how come the history and preferences start taking up the entire screen without allowing one to see the page which required a settings adjustment, and keep in memory what it was about? With as little as 11px more, the old Opera can add functionality to a page by showing its title.
And if I really do have a small screen resolution, I could use a smaller font for the menu, fitting in mere 16 px of additional space.
Menu sizes like these were used with 640*480 and 800*600 screens. The text on the menu remains crisp with good fonts. I am not showing Opera because it, as well as Microsoft Office was not built for such small resolutions (even back then when they were released in 1999-2005) and add padding around the menu text.
We don't need Opera to "give us back" our screens, when they take them away again with the other hand again (history and preferences pages).
Corrected grammar.
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frenzie last edited by
Originally posted by j7nj7n:
Menu sizes like these were used with 640*480 and 800*600 screens. The text on the menu remains crisp with good fonts. I am not showing Opera because it, as well as office was not build for such small resolutions (even back then when they were released in 1999-2005) and add padding around the text.
Quite true; Opera was much too padded.
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frenzie last edited by
You inspired me to take a few extra screenshots so I could show off Opera's nativeness.
This is a native application:
This is Opera 19:
This is a native application using the high contrast color scheme, one of Windows' built-in accessibility features:
This is Opera 19 using the high contrast color scheme:
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frenzie last edited by
But Frenzie, no one uses XP anymore.
The borders are not the same size, and they lack the inlay or whatever it's called. There's also no drag handle in the bottom right.
No comment.
Look familiar?Being native means more than faking it reasonably well with the defaults.
