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Jon von Tetzchner, Opera's founder and former CEO spoke to The Register

  • Originally posted by leushino:

    If you do not like my posts, IGNORE them. It is really quite a simple process.

    Originally posted by fluxrev:

    Yes, it is. So, why do you find it so very difficult to do it?

    Exactly Leushino, and you and the other couple "long-termers" (as if none of us are, as well), are the ones constantly ragging on everyone. And proof of your own delusional importance, is that you are so completely full of sh*t, attempting to judge whether I've made "proper use" of the forums. You sir an idiot of the first degree, for I've tried plenty of the varied, less-than-great, & "sketchy" (as you yourself depict them) suggestions offered, plus I've observed the shifting, even contradictory passing along of information, as if you & Pissala, and others, have some inside line on what's happening.

    Plus, as I've pointed out before you & your crew's narrow definition of what is "proper use" of the help forum, is simply WRONG, and at odds with what Opera states it to be! So, get on with your blown up self-importance, and if you don't like what others post, then simply STFU....... No need to tell us what to do.

  • Originally posted by fluxrev:

    Originally posted by leushino:

    If you don't like my posts, IGNORE them. It's really quite a simple process.

    Yes, it is. So, why do you find it so very difficult to do it?

    But I (unlike you) DON'T dislike reading your stuff or Mr. Cee's noise. Ergo: no need to use that function. :p

  • Originally posted by StevenCee:

    Originally posted by leushino:

    If you do not like my posts, IGNORE them. It is really quite a simple process.

    Originally posted by fluxrev:

    Yes, it is. So, why do you find it so very difficult to do it?

    Exactly Leushino, and you and the other couple "long-termers" (as if none of us are, as well), are the ones constantly ragging on everyone. And proof of your own delusional importance, is that you are so completely full of sh*t, attempting to judge whether I've made "proper use" of the forums. You sir an idiot of the first degree, for I've tried plenty of the varied, less-than-great, & "sketchy" (as you yourself depict them) suggestions offered, plus I've observed the shifting, even contradictory passing along of information, as if you & Pissala, and others, have some inside line on what's happening.

    Plus, as I've pointed out before you & your crew's narrow definition of what is "proper use" of the help forum, is simply WRONG, and at odds with what Opera states it to be! So, get on with your blown up self-importance, and if you don't like what others post, then simply STFU....... No need to tell us what to do.

    Take a deep breath... breathe in s-l-o-w-l-y and breathe out. No need to use vulgar words, Mr. Cee. You've whined from day one in the forums. You've never sought out help but simply decided that you were not subject to the terms of service and used the forums to whine and complain.

    Now here's the thing (which you consistently fail to grasp). Are you ready for it? All of your complaints don't amount to a hill of beans as far as Opera is concerned. Over a year ago the decision was made to drop Presto. The team that developed it is essentially gone. There is NO turning back now and no matter how many threads are begun stating the disenchantment with the new browser or bemoaning the loss of features of the former, Opera Next is the new browser and the only browser that will be developed... period. If there are features you would like to see added back, be respectful (something that appears very difficult for you) and state them in the developers' blogs where they will have a better chance of being noticed. In the meantime, you can easily continue using a Presto version alongside the newer Blink version "if" you want to see how Opera Next is developing. If that is not satisfactory and does not meet your needs, then use another browser. In all of this, whining, complaining, swearing, threatening, bullying, labelling etc etc etc are both counter-productive and somewhat indicative of "other" problems (which I will mercifully leave unsaid).

    :bye:

  • Originally posted by StevenCee:

    you are so completely full of sh*t, attempting to judge whether I've made "proper use" of the forums. You sir an idiot of the first degree . . . . and if you don't like what others post, then simply STFU

    Uhhh . . . . on the other hand . . . :left:

  • Originally posted by fluxrev:

    Originally posted by StevenCee:

    you are so completely full of sh*t, attempting to judge whether I've made "proper use" of the forums. You sir an idiot of the first degree . . . . and if you don't like what others post, then simply STFU

    Uhhh . . . . on the other hand . . . :left:

    Indeed, fluxrev. I've been the recipient of some vicious (and rather vulgar) responses hence my "anger" comment (which in hindsight wasn't one of my more prudent decisions and one I now regret). I suppose the only real option is to place Mr.Cee on Ignore since it would appear that my comments provoke rather than educate. fluxrev, there's no question but that some of my responses have been out of line. I can explain them but sadly I cannot justify them and therein lies the rub for me. 😞

  • Originally posted by StevenCee:

    I'm waiting for the gang to blast Tetzchner for having complaints, criticizing the developers' & execs' decisions, etc.....
    He must be wrong, he doesn't know what he's talking about, airing his complaints simply isn't constructive, he's just a troll, and his comments shouldn't even be seen in this forum.....

    What gang? I haven't seen any gang here doing this. I only question what he says when it collides with other pieces of information we have. And of course if he thinks developing and investing in Presto performance and dealing with compatibility problems until the end of time plus maintaining all the other classic features is better than using a borrowed engine it's his opinion and I have the right to have a different one.

    Originally posted by StevenCee:

    Well, if the same talented developers that created what Opera once was are still there, PLUS, they now have even more people helping them out, then why is it taking them so very long to incorporate something as basic as Bookmarks

    I don't know, but it's not as basic / simple / easy as it seems. There are a lot of bug reports related to the bookmarks bar (QAB) marked as fixed in the changelogs so it required a lot of testing and development even though it looks like a simple feature they could "steal" from the Chromium code, well it only looks like it's a basic/simple feature perhaps.
    Also, I asked Daniel Aleksandersen on Twitter just yesterday "Ok this is getting really weird, why is @Opera resisting so much to add a bookmarks menu/button?", the reply: "Managment are unhappy with how trad. bookmarks work. Getting them just right have taken more time than anyone expected."

    Originally posted by StevenCee:

    specially knowing this is driving many long-time users away

    Your assumption.

    Originally posted by StevenCee:

    I can't imagine newbies checking it out, being willing to use a browser they can't use & manage bookmarks

    Again that's your assumption that newbies need a traditional bookmarks manager/menu/nicknames.

    Originally posted by missingno:

    The interesting thing is: of the approximately 330 million Opera users about 300 million still use Opera 12.

    Very interesting indeed.

    VERY interesting indeed.
    1. Jon has left the company completely but still has access to this kind of internal information?
    2. 330 million is the total number of users, there's no way 300 million people use Opera 12 as the total number of desktop users is 51 million and mobile consists mostly of Mini.

    Originally posted by leushino:

    The team that developed it is essentially gone.

    That's not 100% true, as pointed in quotes I shared in the beginning of this topic.

    I wish the fish slap doesn't hijack this thread. 😕

  • Originally posted by leushino:

    But I (unlike you) DON'T dislike reading your stuff or Mr. Cee's noise. Ergo: no need to use that function. :p

    It's not a matter of dislike (for me, anyway). Just suggesting that some restraint may be a better way to achieve your goals for this forum. But this is all I'll say about it.

  • Originally posted by rafaelluik:

    Again that's your assumption that newbies need a traditional bookmarks manager/menu/nicknames.

    Has it occurred to you that all major desktop browsers except Opera Blink have bookmarks, with managers and menus?

    Your assumption seems to be that lacking them somehow constitutes a unique selling point, if not an advantage.

    Notwithstanding the overwhelmingly negative user response here and in other forums.

  • Originally posted by Sawo:

    Has it occurred to you that all major desktop browsers except Opera Blink have bookmarks, with managers and menus?

    Has it occurred to you that this doesn't say how many people actually use them and how many wouldn't have any problems using Speed Dial folder(s) or Stash, oh and the bookmarks bar?

    Originally posted by Sawo:

    Your assumption seems to be that lacking them somehow constitutes a unique selling point, if not an advantage.

    Where did I say that?

  • Originally posted by leushino:

    Take a deep breath... breathe in s-l-o-w-l-y and breathe out. No need to use vulgar words, Mr. Cee. You've whined from day one in the forums. You've never sought out help but simply decided that you were not subject to the terms of service and used the forums to whine and complain. Now here's the thing (which you consistently fail to grasp). Are you ready for it? All of your complaints don't amount to a hill of beans as far as Opera is concerned. Over a year ago the decision was made to drop Presto. The team that developed it is essentially gone. There is NO turning back now and no matter how many threads are begun stating the disenchantment with the new browser or bemoaning the loss of features of the former, Opera Next is the new browser and the only browser that will be developed... period. If there are features you would like to see added back, be respectful (something that appears very difficult for you) and state them in the developers' blogs where they will have a better chance of being noticed. In the meantime, you can easily continue using a Presto version alongside the newer Blink version "if" you want to see how Opera Next is developing. If that is not satisfactory and does not meet your needs, then use another browser. In all of this, whining, complaining, swearing, threatening, bullying, labeling etc etc etc are both counter-productive and somewhat indicative of "other" problems (which I will mercifully leave unsaid).

    And you still don't get it, because instead of ever paying the slightest attention to what I've said, you have it already set in your tiny, tiny mind. I never once, ever, said a word about Blink or Pesto or preferring Opera 12, or anything you just rattled off.... but then that has never stopped you from your judgmental, wrong-headed, and inaccurate characterizations before, either.

    You believe you are so knowledgeable & and armchair psychologist as well, that you ignore in yourself, all the exact same behavior you deride in others, which a contemporary of Freud's calls out in this quite apropos depiction of you:
    "The best political, social and spiritual work we can do is to withdraw the projection of our shadow onto others.” . . . – Carl Jung

  • And yet "I" have the tiny, tiny mind. :whistle:

  • Originally posted by rafaelluik:

    330 million is the total number of users, there's no way 300 million people use Opera 12 as the total number of desktop users is 51 million and mobile consists mostly of Mini.

    Uhm ...
    from German Wikipedia

    Laut Opera ist der Opera Mini der „weltweit beliebteste Browser mit über 30 Millionen Benutzern“.
    Opera Mobile wurden nach Angaben von Opera seit 2004 auf über 125 Millionen Geräten installiert.

    30 million Opera Mini users, 125 million Opera Mobile installations according to Opera. Only 51 million desktop users of Opera can't be correct.

  • Originally posted by missingno:

    30 million Opera Mini users, 125 million Opera Mobile installations according to Opera. Only 51 million desktop users of Opera can't be correct.

    Or maybe Wikipedia is incorrect or outdated?

    "In December 2013, there were over 270 million Opera mobile browsers users. Out of this number, 248 million were Opera Mini users and the rest were Opera for Android, Mobile Classic and Skyfire users globally." (Source.)

    About Opera desktop: they have 51 million users currently (flat with previous quarter) and "Major part of user base is now on the new product" (PDF of Q4 2013 presentation.)

    270+51 = 321 ~ but let's say 330 million users like Jon said.
    Let's take out all the Opera Mini users: 330-248 = 82.
    Jon's claim that 300 million users are on Opera 12 is completely false, it's impossible. (Or you can blame the tech journalist who wrote the interview, whatever.)

  • To be honest, neither numbers sum up to me. Why is a Skyfire user an Opera mobile browser user?

    Plus I barely know anyone using something else than the stock browser if he or she doesn't know about Opera desktop browser in the first place. While certainly not every Opera Mini user also uses Opera on desktop, I am quite positive there are Opera desktop users not using Opera Mini as well. My assumption would be, there is a more or less equal number of Opera users on mobile and desktop.

    Going from the number of the presentation, which is marked "unaudited" and a Opera market share of 2%, that would mean 2.5 billion people. If under these conditions the number of 330 million is true, that would mean a market share of 13.2%, which undoubtly it a bit too high to be real. 😉

    Just thinking.

  • Opera's latest official usage figures from http://www.operasoftware.com/press/facts

    Number of users using Opera
    Mobile users: More than 264 million.
    Desktop users: 52 million.
    Devices shipped: More than 25 million.
    Total users: More than 350 million.

    Numbers as of August 2013. Updated monthly.

    No updates since August, one month after Opera 15 was officially released?

    Makes you wonder why…

  • Originally posted by Sawo:

    Opera's latest official usage figures from http://www.operasoftware.com/press/facts

    Number of users using Opera
    Mobile users: More than 264 million.
    Desktop users: 52 million.
    Devices shipped: More than 25 million.
    Total users: More than 350 million.

    Numbers as of August 2013. Updated monthly.

    No updates since August, one month after Opera 15 was officially released?Makes you wonder why…

    The updated official numbers are in the financial quarterly reports, I posted the links in a post just above. The web designers must have forgotten about this page since the redesign of opera.com.

  • Originally posted by rafaelluik:

    ]The updated official numbers are in the financial quarterly reports, I posted the links in a post just above. The web designers must have forgotten about this page since the redesign of opera.com.
    About Opera desktop: they have 51 million users currently (flat with previous quarter) and "Major part of user base is now on the new product"

    52 million in August, 51 million by December.

    "Major part of user base is now on the new product"

    Like many other users on these forums, I keep downloading, installing, and trying out every new release of Opera Blink - in the vain hope of seeing it develop into something worth using. So far, no joy. Opera 12.16 is better in every respect but site compatibility, for a handful of cases. And in unfortunate fact, every other Chrome Clone on the market is better than Opera Blink, too.

    For the company it seems every download and install is counted as "users being on the new product".

    Not so. I just haven't given up on Opera yet. But if the new browser remains so woefully uncompetitive, I may have to.

  • Originally posted by Sawo:

    Opera 12.16 is better in every respect but site compatibility, for a handful of cases.

    You may want to try Opera 12.14, it has been proven to be more compatible with sites than 12.16, especially with one's that don't work in 12.16. And there is no security differences between 12.14 and 12.16 as far as i and some other users can tell.

  • Hi,

    Some clarifications on numbers and Jon leaving Opera below.

    Originally posted by Krake:

    Originally posted by Sawo:

    Another interview with Jon von Tetzchner, which appeared today in the German magazine c't'.

    It contains some information about the changes at the company, and the switch to Opera 15.

    It is in German, so you may need to use a web translator.

    Google translate isn't so bad:

    Jon von Tetzchner was co-founder and CEO until early 2010 the Norwegian company Opera Software, which develops the same browser. Mid-2012, he retired from the strife of his company, which since then drives a significantly different course. With Vivaldi.net now reports from Tetzchner back from his Icelandic home. The first goal of startups: building an online community with blogs, forums and mail services, offering the users of the soon closing service My Opera a new home.

    In an interview with c't tells of Tetzchner of his plans with Vivaldi and keep his opinions about the new Opera strategy is not behind the mountain.

    c't: you have left about two and a half years ago Opera. What did you do in the meantime?

    Jon von Tetzchner: I have a little invested in startups, about ten companies, most in Iceland. I founded a startup center in Seltjarnarnes in Reykjavik, where I lived as a child. Here now work 18 companies - the Startup Center was full in a week.

    Then I asked myself: Do I want to now only work as a consultant? After a while I thought: No, I must be doing something yourself. In a way, I served the Opera idea by hiring My Opera. I thought for some time, it would be interesting to start a community: a difficult competition, a crazy idea - okay, let's do it.

    c't: Is Vivaldi.net planned as a pure My-Opera-clone? It's a bold idea of ??building a community in the age of Facebook ...

    of Tetzchner: We think a lot about innovations. We have compiled a comprehensive starter kit, but it will definitely be more. We still are but in an early stage. We have launched a month ago.

    From Tetzchners Vivaldi.net to the My Opera community, which is closed in three weeks, which give a new home.
    We focus not so obvious to attract users. I think there is room for a site like this. We have always tried in Opera, to be the good guys, and so it is with Vivaldi. There are many former Opera-people, also a few Icelanders. We are a small team, about 20 people, more than half of technicians. The money comes from me, there are no other investors.

    c't: Where is the business model?

    of Tetzchner: We have experience with affiliate deals in Opera, something in the way we could make at Vivaldi. I think there are some ways to make money, without sacrificing the user. We try to focus on privacy and security: It's all encrypted, we play no advertising in the mails. We host in Iceland, only for the delivery of the websites we use Content Delivery Networks.
    "There are some ways to earn money without having it at the expense of users."

    We did not want to spy on our users. Check out our EULA at times, sure, I'm actually proud of. It is not so full of legalese as usual. We try to give the company a human face - as we have done in Opera, and I hope we can do it again here. We want to build something for geeks, make a group of happy people who demand a lot - the target group are the Opera-users.

    c't: How big is the My Opera community?

    of Tetzchner: There are, I believe, registered more than 10 million, but the number of active participants is much smaller. There were over 35 million visitors per month - I do not understand why Opera closes.

    That said, I understand it already, because I know the people who run the company now: look at the revenue and expenditure of My Opera separately, and there was never at Opera efforts to make money - it was something that what we did for our users. But the community has played a central role in building operators, since people all came through word of mouth.

    c't: Have you spoken with Opera on the acquisition of My Opera? The founders of Fast Mail've got you down even bought back.

    of Tetzchner: One can, I think, to say that the relationship is not optimal. I have a few people over concerns that I would like to take over the community, but they did not give me.

    Up to and including version 12 Opera was packed with functions, features and configuration options.

    Opera 15 had the flashing engine not much to add except a nice user interface with "Discovery" and "Stash".

    c't: What browser do you use anyway?

    of Tetzchner: Still Opera 12

    c't: Am I doing even occasionally, but he is aging fast ...

    of Tetzchner: Yes, it's a bit like a burning ship - at some point you have to stop the machine. The interesting thing is: Of the approximately 330 million Opera users still use the 300 million Opera 12

    ***Clarification on the numbers:
    Opera has somewhere north of 330 million users. Of these users:

    - 248 million are using Mini.
    - 22 million are using Mobile.
    - 51 million are using Desktop.
    - 30 million are using Opera on Wii, DS and other devices. I think that number sounds high, but lets go with it. These are all Opera numbers.

    Out of these, all Mini users are using Presto. More than half of the desktop users are using Presto, using 3rd party stats. All Wii, DS and other device users are using Presto. Mobile, I am not sure, but I would expect a significant number of the 22 million are using Presto.

    Out of these, all Mini users are using Presto. More than half of the desktop users are using Presto, using 3rd party stats. All Wii, DS and other
    device users are using Presto. Mobile, I am not sure, but I would expect a significant number of the 22 million areusing Presto.

    Adding this all together, it is clear that about 300 millon of the 330 or 350 million users are using Presto, the browser engine powering Opera 12***

    c't: That would not bode well for Opera's move to WebKit.

    of Tetzchner: It was the wrong move. It has apparently taken the decision at the beginning of 2010, when I stopped - at least you heard back then on to invest in the development team. You have people no longer replaced, who have left, gradually the code was less competitive. And we all know that you have to give everything when you compete against Google, Apple and Mozilla.
    "A lot of smart people have left Opera."

    Clarification: Jon quit Opera in June 2011 after leaving the position of CEO in January 2010.

    c't: Many Opera users were shocked when they saw Opera 15.

    of Tetzchner: We could have said: Okay, let's take WebKit, we use our resources to build a great UI. But in reality, there were the people for not, because the had ceased or been fired.

    A lot of smart people have left Opera. When I stopped, about 750 people worked at Opera. Now while there are more, but over 300 people have since ceased, especially from the core team. The focus is now more on advertising and on the financial side, not in the products - and Opera was a product company.

    c't: Did you then actually voluntarily ceased as CEO?

    of Tetzchner: It was my decision, but it was a long, long struggle preceded, and I was really exhausted. I hoped with Lars Boilesen there would be continuity, because he had worked as my Head of Sales, but I should find out quickly that this would not be so.

    The investors wanted the company in a different direction when I draw - rather in the holding of the financial market is right, instead of trying to make the end user happy. I have seven years fought against, to sell the company or to neglect the desktop browser.

    I left the company in a very good condition. We had doubled our user base of 50 to 100 million and continued to grow, even without new features. I left the company with 100 million U.S. dollars in the bank. This money is spent obviously, because they had a new round of financing. You have company bought, which is expensive.

    The financial market seems to be very happy with how the company is run. I am sad when I see what has happened with my company. It goes completely in the opposite direction from the one where I was going. This change in direction was the reason that I no more than a kind of spirit was standing in the background and Opera in 2012 finally left. Then perhaps accelerated the development, but the real break was already done.

    Sentimental farewell gesture: As a kind of Easter Egg developers smuggled in Opera 12 a letter to her retired founder of the company a.

    c't: Do you feel that you have destroyed your life's work?

    of Tetzchner: I think Opera could have achieved much more. For 2013, we had 500 million users as the target. Had we continued on our way, we would have, I think, done. The two features that have been added since my departure, are Discovery and Stash. On the other hand a lot of things have disappeared.

    And Coast, the new tablet browser, I see myself more as a cool prototypes. Previously, we have implemented projects such as Turbo or Unite, which was a major innovation. Unite matches the direction in which the Internet developed more peer-to-peer, not everything in the cloud.
    "When you're in an area pioneer, one comes in a very good position when one catches up after a while the trend."

    c't: Unite was, I believe, the first thing that Opera has adjusted after your departure. I always had the impression that the users have not understood then what you could do with it.

    of Tetzchner: I had the idea that we can improve further Unite - that was only version 1.0. Peer-to-Peer is now a big trend, as the Internet of Things. We have started doing in 2005. That was very early, as much of what we did.

    We started with mobile browsers in 1999. At that time, people said that mobile browsers do not make sense, one should take WAP. I believe that if one is a pioneer in a field and continue working on it, you get into a very good position when one catches up after a while the trend. Therefore we need long-term investments.

    Now Opera invested more in the purchase of other companies - as Skyfire, what ever did not make sense to me. Of course I'm sad that she threw away Unite, but I'm also sad that she threw away bookmarks and a lot of other things that use the people.

  • Originally posted by Sawo:

    52 million in August, 51 million by December.

    It's easy to play that game. You should have checked the data relating to desktop Opera Presto (11~12) before. :rolleyes: 60 million in 1st quarter of 2012, 52 in 2nd quarter of 2013 - that was with Opera PRESTO. 😉
    http://www.operasoftware.com/company/investors/finance

    Originally posted by Sawo:

    For the company it seems every download and install is counted as "users being on the new product".

    Nope, I remember they saying they count active users. Opera phones home at least for BrowserJS so they know it.
    Also, worth mentioning other bit of info in the 4Q2013 presentation that is "Cuts churn by more than 25%", Haavard explains this in Twitter as "(more users are sticking with the new version than the old one)".

    Originally posted by Sawo:

    "Major part of user base is now on the new product"

    Like many other users on these forums, I keep downloading, installing, and trying out every new release of Opera Blink - in the vain hope of seeing it develop into something worth using. So far, no joy. Opera 12.16 is better in every respect but site compatibility, for a handful of cases. And in unfortunate fact, every other Chrome Clone on the market is better than Opera Blink, too.

    Major part of the user base still disagrees with you... Just saying.

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