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Why Use Opera?

  • @coffeelover Oh, golly. I suppose now that I've chimed in, I can't just let this lie.

    I used Olde Opera as long as @wojcieche . There was a reason for that. It provided something(s) no other browser did. That ended with Opera Blink.

    While I am not in favor of derogatory terms, I also am not in favor of subtle/covert slagging-off of a competitor.

    Vivalidi is bug-free for certain use patterns, and buggy for others - just as Opera is.

    It's true most see the return to an opulent suite as a leap backwards. For those who disagree, there is Vivaldi. It exists only because we exist - those who feel confined by bare-bones simplicity. Vivaldi was invented for us, not for you. I don't see that as a disqualifier.

    "...something that very few users (i.e. ayespy) need for their 'work flow' or so they claim." I will thank you not to accuse me of lying. If Opera, which I used for fourteen years, kept up with my needs, I would have stuck with it. I did not move to a new platform for imaginary or fictitious reasons. K? K. And Vivaldi was targeted at, proportionally, "very few users." It is not intended to compete with the "big boys" in the market, but rather to satisfy the needs of users that the market, in all its wisdom, abandoned.

    "...These same users would adjust their workflow to another browser within a short time..." I tried for two years to do that with the new, Blink Opera. What do you define as a short time?

    "Vivaldi is built for those who want infinite customizability..." Bingo. Are we not also valid human beings? As part of a minority, is it our fate to be ignored, discarded, or forced to "adapt?" While I have a choice, I will choose.

    "Can a small, insignificant company like Vivaldi keep abreast?" Why, yes. For the last four years it has kept abreast. Its acceptance and economic vigor have nearly doubled in the last year.

    "It would surprise me if we see this browser still in development three years from now." Prepare to be surprised.

    While not using terms to which you object, you nonetheless "politely" slag off a newcomer to the market, doing exactly what it was intended to do. Please, feel free to ignore it. It's not relevant to your life, apparently, and no concern of yours.

  • @sgunhouse Exactly. Well said.

  • @coffeelover: "pseudo-Opera" is not a derogatory term, but a very, very, very well deserved one after a hostile takeover of the company against the founder and changing direction followed by 17 years by the founder by 180 degrees, against interests of its users, solely for the (expected) benefit of investors.
    Going further it was arrogant, shameless chutzpah explicitly intended to mislead users, to call the new Chromium browser Opera 15 as if it was a straightforward update to Presto Opera 12.x. Which it was not. Sure, the owners of the company could do what they wanted but they decided to do the above, so they have their consequences. If they called the new browser a new name and version 1.0, being honest with what they did, I would not use "pseudo" prefix. I hope this is clear for you now.

    Making a suite is not a step backwards, but a step in the only proper direction (considering also that UI is clean and consistent - and it is in Vivaldi). And interestingly, it is not subjective, it can sure be proven mathematically that you are wrong on saying suite is a step backwards - because having a well-integrated, customizable suite with lot's of useful features provides higher usability and allows to browse faster, easier, more efficiently compared to a browser stripped down from features with only some features added inconsistently by extensions, making the browser a Frankenstein. Switching tabs by Ctrl+Tab, Quick Commands, search engine nicknames as just 3 small examples, are self-explanatory in terms of how they make browsing faster and more convenient.

    I have a saying - Vivaldi is for users who demand/expect more - and the more you demand, the more you will appreciate the features and level of customizability provided by Vivaldi. BUT even if someone is a basic user and demands little, he will still lose nothing by using Vivaldi, but will get some small little things like real progress bar with counter in the URL field which will clearly tell him (unlike spinning wheels) whether the page is loading or is dead; the tab Trash in the corner will allow him reopen tabs or even windows with all history easily; and with time he may discover a few more things that will make his browsing faster, easier and more convenient. And it is surely easier to discover something that is build-in, than go out and look for clumsy extensions. Relying 100% on extensions to integrate functionality was always a broken by design paradigm for me from this and a few other reasons (like security, performance).

    Your portentous predictions against Vivaldi do not have much real basis, they seem to be just effect of reading too much hype news about AI. I see that you are unable to explain your point - why and how browsing is supposed to change drastically due to AI and why Vivaldi is supposed not to keep up with it. No matter what AI does, I will still want to go to sites I do want to go and will do it on my own. And Vivaldi is synced... will soon be mobile... portable... on small devices... - so how is Vivaldi not keeping up with the modern trends..? Saying integrated mail client makes no sense just because nobody else is doing it proves your lack of arguments on the matter and that you do not understand what being visionary means. Following the crowd is not a way to add unique value my friend...

  • I use Opera simply because it (still) fits my needs. When it's no longer true, I will look for another browser to use.

    I guess I can say that it's valid for all software that I use.

  • @wojcieche said in Why Use Opera?:

    Ctrl+Tab

    I meant RMB+scroll but cannot edit anymore to correct it.

  • @sgunhouse I understand that but the "fact" remains... most users don't want a suite. And that is the bottom line and the reason why Vivaldi will never really take off. It's been designed for a very small niche and therefore has this built-in propensity for future failure. I still say that within a few years we'll find Vivaldi a curiosity of the past. Opera has a much better opportunity for growth for the simple reason that it has money behind it along with a much greater potential for growth.

  • @wojcieche Psuedo-Opera most certainly is derogatory or you would not have used it. Facts speak for themselves and you're denying them. Vivaldi's days are numbered unless they find a way to make money to keep them afloat. Perhaps charging users for the suite might give them more time but in the end... without enough users they'll fail.

  • @ayespy Why do you find it imperative that you come over to the Opera forum and trumpet the wonders of Vivaldi? If you like such a backward suite... great. But why denigrate Opera in the Opera forum? Would you appreciate a bunch of Opera users coming over to Vivaldi's forum and ridiculing it? I doubt it.

  • @coffeelover And if present trends continue, Vivaldi will have plenty of users to keep it afloat. Next you will be telling us that Harley Davidson will soon go out of business because too few people buy its product. A Harley isn't for everyone - but it's for enough people that the company's future is assured.

  • @ayespy Why do you find it imperative that you come into Opera's house and preach the wonders of another browser? Vivalid? Big deal. I don't want it and every person with whom I'm acquainted doesn't want it. It's a niche product for a very small percentage of people who love to tinker. Period. Go and enjoy your backward suite. And good luck to you.

  • @coffeelover said in Why Use Opera?:

    Why do you find it imperative that you come over to the Opera forum and trumpet the wonders of Vivaldi?

    I don't find it imperative. Truth told, the comment by @sgunhouse drew me here. Knowing him from the Vivaldi community, I was surprised to see it, and a little taken aback.

    If you like such a (redacted insult) suite... great.

    Yes - I think it's great, too.

    But why denigrate Opera in the Opera forum?

    I didn't denigrate Opera. I did express my frustration at their path, but I suppose I'm still a bit mad at them for abandoning me. I have never done so on the Chrome or Firefox forums, but then I never cared about them, nor thought they cared about me. You know, "there's no fanatic like a convert." I also have nothing bad to say about women I never knew. A lover who jilted me, however...

    Would you appreciate a bunch of Opera users coming over to Vivaldi's forum and ridiculing it? I doubt it.

    It happens more than you would imagine. I see it regularly. I tolerate it fine. It's a signal that Vivaldi has some gaps to fill.

    By the way, I am a coffee addict. What sort of brew do you favor?

  • @ayespy Okay. You're being reasonable so I should as well. I like Seattle's best.. dark brew. It keeps me on my toes when my wife is looking for me. ๐Ÿ˜‰

  • @coffeelover Seattle's Best is a tad rich for my pocketbook. We consume entirely too much of it around here to be careless about the cost. It's good, but I enjoy fresh-ground (by me) Jose's from Costco equally, and find the economic pinch bearable. Something like $4.38/lb is not bad. My preference overall is 100% Arabica, grown in either Colombia or Hawaii.

    And, by the way, I can appreciate your position on the browser. I used Opera from abt 2000, and was an avid (rabid?) defender of it on this site even after the change, from 2013 to 2015. I get loyalty. Had it not abandoned support for my use patterns, or if an offering that did support my use patterns had not appeared, I'd probably be loyal still. For me, once I got used to Opera, trying to use IE, Edge, FF or Chrome was always a bit like sitting on marbles.

    You have a lovely day. ๐Ÿ™‚

  • @ayespy I have to add that I'm not entirely a fanboy of Opera. I'm deeply disappointed in Opera's sale to the Chinese consortium as a result of which I do not use it for certain things that I consider sensitive. I can appreciate your loyalty to Jรณn von Tetzchner's new browser due to your work flow as you mention. I've even played around with it a bit but found it too slow about a year ago. I think it's clever the way you diffused me by finding common ground to build upon. I like that. You also have a great day.

  • @coffeelover said in Why Use Opera?:

    @wojcieche Psuedo-Opera most certainly is derogatory or you would not have used it.

    I need to use some term to distinguish the real, original Opera from a very different application that received the same label, but has almost nothing in common. I like to be precise and I believe this is a fair and perfectly adequate term. I hope you can understand my point of view.

    Facts speak for themselves and you're denying them. Vivaldi's days are numbered unless they find a way to make money to keep them afloat. Perhaps charging users for the suite might give them more time but in the end... without enough users they'll fail.

    I am not sure which facts I deny :-), but worry not - Vivaldi has a working business model and is earning. And with some 3+ billion internet users a few millions will appreciate it to keep it afloat. It is not such niche as you seem to think - see more on this below. ๐Ÿ™‚

    @coffeelover said in Why Use Opera?:

    @sgunhouse I understand that but the "fact" remains... most users don't want a suite. And that is the bottom line and the reason why Vivaldi will never really take off. It's been designed for a very small niche and therefore has this built-in propensity for future failure. I still say that within a few years we'll find Vivaldi a curiosity of the past.

    Actually... it is much different.
    The sad truth I see is that nowadays all major browsers no longer compete with quality, as they are very similar - stripped down from features. Instead they compete with... distribution channels. Advertising and bundling to push the browser onto as many users' computers as possible, often without their explicit permission or even knowledge. And once it installs, user checks what is this new icon and starts using, as it makes no much difference to him from his similar other browser... It cannot be called a conscious choice based on browser quality and features and even more you cannot tell if user refuses to use a suite - especially if he hasn't tried any (meaning Vivaldi as the only representative). So you take your "facts" that users do not like suite from nowhere really...

    And the reality is that suite is not for geeks only. Nobody says user has to use 100% functionality (even I do not) and change every setting to appreciate an application. The reality is that a few handy features can win the heart of the user, especially if he hasn't noticed any special features in his current browser. Some users appreciate split screen view of tabs, some appreciate integrated notes, some appreciate screenshots, some web panels. When they are shown a few handy things which their current browser didn't have, they can start appreciating the suite, even when they use just a small part of the available functionality. And if the UI is clean and simple, other features do not disturb, but still with time user can discover some more of the build-in features and become tied to the suite even more. ๐Ÿ™‚

    Just wanted to get this out for your consideration since you seem to have a very different perception of the matter. Have a great day!

    Oh, and I brew coffee too ๐Ÿ˜… I prefer light-roasted from dripper Hario V60. I am not from US, so 100% Arabica specialty coffee brands I use will probably not be of interest for you...

  • During my time as an Opera Presto user, it being a suite was never really a problem for me. on the contrary, I used to use it as an argument to promote Opera.

    However, after the release of Opera Chromium and as I got used to it, I began to get caught many times wondering if all those features were really necessary. And I found out that, at least for me, many of them weren't.

    And I guess this is the key point to me: People nowadays seem to prefer to keep things the more simple as possible. The increasing and the success of the mobile platforms and their apps show that.

    Yes, people want features but those that really can help improving their experience on the web and, above all, people want their favorite pages working. And it seems to me that Opera started aiming at those ones and try to get more market instead of continue as a product to a niche.

    The fact is that things changed a lot since Opera started back in the 1990's. Computers has changed, the web has changed, the world has changed, the world has changed, so I think we have different contexts now and back then.

    When I started using Opera, about 20 years ago, installing it from a floppy disk, the web as we know today was just starting, few people had a computer at home. Today people carry a computer in their pockets thousands of times more powerful than the ones used at home two decades ago and the Internet is what we are seeing now.

    So different situations, different needs.

  • @wojcieche Since you're a coffee lover, I find no fault in you (to quote Pontus Pilate). I think I over-reacted to your post and that of ayespy's. Forgive my unwarranted defense of Opera. Best wishes to you both (and Steve as well).

  • @leocg said in Why Use Opera?:

    When I started using Opera, about 20 years ago, installing it from a floppy disk, the web as we know today was just starting, few people had a computer at home. Today people carry a computer in their pockets thousands of times more powerful than the ones used at home two decades ago and the Internet is what we are seeing now.

    It appears we both began with Opera at the same time, Leo. ๐Ÿ™‚ Those days are now far behind us. The online world has radically changed but sometimes I wonder if the change has been for the better. I just don't know.

  • @leocg said in Why Use Opera?:

    ... So different situations, different needs.

    This!!!

    For many years I used Olde Opera precisely because it fit nearly all my browsing needs, just as my needs had evolved around the many features of that browser. When Opera elected to follow the Blink pathway, I was a rather ardent Opera defender for a time in Opera's old forums amidst the truly massive outcry against that change. My key point then was for users to be patient and give Opera's developers time to integrate various key features (whose losses were being loudly decried) into the new browser. As time went by, some of the key 'dropped' features needed for my work flow were indeed restored to the evolving design (bookmarking, in particular). But others were not, and even the bookmarks feature itself lacked certain sub-features that were very significant to me (eg: the ability to set bookmarks bar titles to text only, since I need 50-70 bookmarks on a given single-line toolbar and abbreviate their titles severely). During that time, I often found myself increasingly agreeing with @ayespy's postings in the old Opera forums trying to persuade the developers and posters of the need for what we viewed as better control, features, and customization capability in New Opera, but to diminishing avail. Opera's focus had shifted.

    What was actually occurring was both a change in the way the Opera browser was targeted and a change in (or more accurately, my recognition of) the importance of various detail requirements of my work flow using browsers. Opera was now developing a browser for 'the marketplace', whereas I had evolved solid work patterns dependent on my having detailed control/customization of browser settings, functions, and features. Thus, for a long time, I persisted in using Olde Opera (12.18) for much of my work-related browsing and both New Opera and Firefox for my casual browsing. Fortunately, as Olde Opera became unacceptably obsolete in terms of website compatibility, Vivaldi came upon the scene. It allowed me the detailed customization and features in areas that my work flow had come to demand. It's design mantra was that it was "a browser for our friends", meaning those users who require detail browser functionality and control. Hence, it's a browser that is actually a configurable tool.

    Today, I have different needs than most of the users now targeted by Opera. So I use Vivaldi for my primary browsing and New Opera for some casual browsing. And I experiment a bit with Otter. They're all good browsers given the roles they're intended to play... but they're each aimed at different user needs and priorities. Frankly, I'm glad they all exist. And they're free... ๐Ÿ˜ƒ

  • @blackbird71 said in Why Use Opera?:

    It's design mantra was...

    "Its"?

    And it's free!

    Mandela's free! ๐Ÿ˜ƒ

    Well, I use Opera 36 for some casual browsing, too. Because it's neat and very comfortable to scroll and handle.
    But not only that casual, some tasks of business because it feels secure. TS360 integrated.

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